23 Mar 2005 20:28:39
Lionel
A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

All it takes is one quick combination and the guy goes down. Screw all
this kung fu crap.


23 Mar 2005 21:48:26
Sheldon
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week


"Lionel" <stevelionelyoung@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:4cfa4559.0503232028.5258f7a8@posting.google.com...
> All it takes is one quick combination and the guy goes down. Screw all
> this kung fu crap.

We used to argue this in Karate class all the time. Given both guys are
about the same size, I'd go with the martial artist. Punching is allowed in
Karate, and many boxers use the same techniques martial artists use to
increase power. Problem is most boxers aren't expecting a foot up side the
head. :-) In most cases it could be a tough call.




23 Mar 2005 20:58:25
mitchell_leary
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week



Lionel wrote:
> All it takes is one quick combination and the guy goes down. Screw
all
> this kung fu crap.

The boxer thinks the fight is over when he goes home. Typical lowbrow
deduction.



24 Mar 2005 04:38:02
Robert Phillips
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

Lionel wrote:
> All it takes is one quick combination and the guy goes down. Screw all
> this kung fu crap.


I bet those rec.photo.digital animals are gonna rip this guy a new one.


Pie
(posted only to RSB)


23 Mar 2005 23:01:38
the Bede
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

"mitchell_leary" <mitchell_leary@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1111640305.396428.238170@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> Lionel wrote:
> > All it takes is one quick combination and the guy goes down. Screw
> > all this kung fu crap.
> >
> The boxer thinks the fight is over when he goes home. Typical lowbrow
> deduction.
>
yes. the martial artist will follow the boxer home and murder him in his
sleep, ninja-style.




24 Mar 2005 05:12:49
Pete D
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week


"Sheldon" <sheldon@XXXXXXXXsopris.net > wrote in message
news:gJudnRAuJNgP29_fRVn-jA@comcast.com...
>
> "Lionel" <stevelionelyoung@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:4cfa4559.0503232028.5258f7a8@posting.google.com...
>> All it takes is one quick combination and the guy goes down. Screw all
>> this kung fu crap.
>
> We used to argue this in Karate class all the time. Given both guys are
> about the same size, I'd go with the martial artist. Punching is allowed
> in Karate, and many boxers use the same techniques martial artists use to
> increase power. Problem is most boxers aren't expecting a foot up side
> the head. :-) In most cases it could be a tough call.

In the clinch he never expects the knee in the groin. And it's always so
funny when it happens to someone else.





23 Mar 2005 21:27:20
Ray
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

What makes you think the boxer cannot knee you in the groin? See, this
is the thing about some people. They always say about eyejab,
groinshot, bites, etc. What they seem to always conveniently forget is
that the boxing/BJJ/muay thai guy can do the same to them.

If you can't even nail a boxer's face with that big boxing glove, what
makes you think you can nail his eyes with your *fingers*? And I bet
the boxer has a better chance of eye-jabbing _you_ first.

Pete D wrote:
> "Sheldon" <sheldon@XXXXXXXXsopris.net> wrote in message
> news:gJudnRAuJNgP29_fRVn-jA@comcast.com...
>
> In the clinch he never expects the knee in the groin. And it's always
so
> funny when it happens to someone else.



23 Mar 2005 21:27:42
SPORTfighter
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

True dat.
But boxers suck at other things...grappling...weapons...
math...

Gi



23 Mar 2005 21:30:05
Ray
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

Unless if the boxer's name's Rodney

SPORTfighter wrote:
> True dat.
> But boxers suck at other things...grappling...weapons...
> math...
>
> Gi



24 Mar 2005 13:36:08
Fraser Johnston
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week


"Lionel" <stevelionelyoung@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:4cfa4559.0503232028.5258f7a8@posting.google.com...
> All it takes is one quick combination and the guy goes down. Screw all
> this kung fu crap.

I agree with the troll.

Fraser




24 Mar 2005 00:28:40
GregoryD
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 21:48:26 -0700, Sheldon wrote:

>
> "Lionel" <stevelionelyoung@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:4cfa4559.0503232028.5258f7a8@posting.google.com...
>> All it takes is one quick combination and the guy goes down. Screw all
>> this kung fu crap.
>
> We used to argue this in Karate class all the time. Given both guys are
> about the same size, I'd go with the martial artist. Punching is allowed in
> Karate, and many boxers use the same techniques martial artists use to
> increase power. Problem is most boxers aren't expecting a foot up side the
> head. :-) In most cases it could be a tough call.

Punching is "allowed?" Dude, the first time you try to throw a high kick
against a boxer, make sure you have your medical alert bracelet on and/or
check the organ donation box on your driver's license. You're asking to
get murdered. The average boxer would put the average black belt in the
ER without much of a problem. There's a world of difference between
practicing and doing the deed.

GregoryD


24 Mar 2005 00:42:08
YoJimbo
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

In article <JQr0e.2055$Qz.194@okepread05 >, rspwsownthebede@yahoo.com says...
>
>"mitchell_leary" <mitchell_leary@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:1111640305.396428.238170@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>> Lionel wrote:
>> > All it takes is one quick combination and the guy goes down. Screw
>> > all this kung fu crap.
>> >
>> The boxer thinks the fight is over when he goes home. Typical lowbrow
>> deduction.
>>
>yes. the martial artist will follow the boxer home and murder him in his
>sleep, ninja-style.

Some of you guys are really on a roll here...
Don't worry, you can always troll us on RMA, we're suckers for any kind of
argument about boxing.

But think about this: do *you* guys really want to be associated with a
sport that produced guys that look like Leon Spinks?

I mean, think about it...
JS






23 Mar 2005 23:01:14
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week


Sheldon wrote:
> "Lionel" <stevelionelyoung@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:4cfa4559.0503232028.5258f7a8@posting.google.com...
> > All it takes is one quick combination and the guy goes down. Screw
all
> > this kung fu crap.
>
> We used to argue this in Karate class all the time. Given both guys
are
> about the same size, I'd go with the martial artist. Punching is
allowed in
> Karate, and many boxers use the same techniques martial artists use
to
> increase power. Problem is most boxers aren't expecting a foot up
side the
> head. :-)

thEN HOW COME NOBODY COULD TAKE TANK ABBOTT DOWN WITH A "KICK TO THE
HEAD" IN UFC 2?? THEY SHOWED "CLIPS" OF ALL THESE ASSHOLES IN ACTION
BEFORE THE FIGHT DOING FLIPS, KICKS, AND SUBMISSIONS THAT LOOKED PRETTY
IMPRESSIVE, BUT TANK TOOK THEM ALL OUT WITH STRIKES. PURE STRIKES.
HELL, THAT ONE DUDE THAT WAS "290 LBS OF PURE MUSCLE" THEY HAD TO STOP
THE FIGHT BECAUSE HE COULDN'T DEFEND HIMSELF AGAIN'ST TANK.



24 Mar 2005 15:07:54
Fraser Johnston
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week


<drsmith666@aol.com > wrote in message
news:1111645653.049343.295280@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> Sheldon wrote:
>> "Lionel" <stevelionelyoung@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:4cfa4559.0503232028.5258f7a8@posting.google.com...
>> > All it takes is one quick combination and the guy goes down. Screw
> all
>> > this kung fu crap.
>>
>> We used to argue this in Karate class all the time. Given both guys
> are
>> about the same size, I'd go with the martial artist. Punching is
> allowed in
>> Karate, and many boxers use the same techniques martial artists use
> to
>> increase power. Problem is most boxers aren't expecting a foot up
> side the
>> head. :-)
>
> thEN HOW COME NOBODY COULD TAKE TANK ABBOTT DOWN WITH A "KICK TO THE
> HEAD" IN UFC 2?? THEY SHOWED "CLIPS" OF ALL THESE ASSHOLES IN ACTION
> BEFORE THE FIGHT DOING FLIPS, KICKS, AND SUBMISSIONS THAT LOOKED PRETTY
> IMPRESSIVE, BUT TANK TOOK THEM ALL OUT WITH STRIKES. PURE STRIKES.
> HELL, THAT ONE DUDE THAT WAS "290 LBS OF PURE MUSCLE" THEY HAD TO STOP
> THE FIGHT BECAUSE HE COULDN'T DEFEND HIMSELF AGAIN'ST TANK.

Muscle doesn't wobble when you walk.

Fraser




23 Mar 2005 23:15:02
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

Yeah. All the fancy flips and stuff sure looks good.... But when you
get pumped in the face, what's it gonna help? I remember the UFC series
yeah...i laughed my rocks off. Especially when i saw that American
Ninja dude, and this Ettish guy get scarred 4 life.

Wether it was this Gracie guy or a boxer or Severn(wrestler) or that
Muay Thai guy(smith?), the guys that won it or reached the finals were
guys that did simple stuff. No back flips or roundhouse Hollywood shit.



23 Mar 2005 23:24:32
Scary
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

Have you guys been living under a rock for the past 15 years?

Did someone teleport you out of the 70's !!!!

Scary.



23 Mar 2005 23:29:47
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

Well, the latest UFC and Pride are still giving the same results as the
old ones....



23 Mar 2005 23:55:03
Chris Tsao
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week


Ray wrote:
> What makes you think the boxer cannot knee you in the groin?

Bareknuckle boxers used to kick. Their kicks were low. I sent away for
a videotape that covers boxing's dirty tricks. If there are any rare
moves that hardly anyone knows, I'll post them in here. Maybe my tapes
won't ever come? I sent away for them on the 7th. The eBayer only has
23 stars; maybe she doesn't plan on sending me my goods? I read an
article online a few weeks ago that said that they held contests
between boxers and kung fu fighters a hundred something years ago and
the kung fu fighters won most of them. The matches lasted a long time.
One went the distance. I read an article in a boxing magazine in 1984
or '85 that mentioned that too and that the boxers won some of the
matches, but they didn't say who won the most.



23 Mar 2005 23:57:55
Scary
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

> All it takes is one quick combination and the guy goes down. Screw
all
> this kung fu crap.
I


agree with the troll.

Fraser


Yeah Troll rules Kung Fu drools!!


Scary.



24 Mar 2005 08:28:42
George Kinzer
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

I have never seen a kung fu dude knock out a boxer.





24 Mar 2005 04:28:05
Chris Tsao
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week


Chris Tsao wrote:
> Ray wrote:
> > What makes you think the boxer cannot knee you in the groin?
>
> Bareknuckle boxers used to kick. Their kicks were low. I sent away
for
> a videotape that covers boxing's dirty tricks. If there are any rare
> moves that hardly anyone knows, I'll post them in here. Maybe my
tapes
> won't ever come? I sent away for them on the 7th. The eBayer only has
> 23 stars; maybe she doesn't plan on sending me my goods? I read an
> article online a few weeks ago that said that they held contests
> between boxers and kung fu fighters a hundred something years ago and
> the kung fu fighters won most of them. The matches lasted a long
time.
> One went the distance. I read an article in a boxing magazine in 1984
> or '85 that mentioned that too and that the boxers won some of the
> matches, but they didn't say who won the most.

And boxing is kung fu. I have boxing manuals and a few dozen boxing
instruction videos and they explain trapping arms, joint locks, all
these foreign-looking ways of stepping etc.. I got this boxing tape a
few months ago or a month and a half ago and this guy throws a
half-uppercut in the air (and purposely misses), then twists his fist
and shoots it out straight. That's snake style but with a fist and I
think he said that that's a Willie Pep punch?



24 Mar 2005 12:55:34
Bean Fried Pork
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week


"Lionel" <stevelionelyoung@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:4cfa4559.0503232028.5258f7a8@posting.google.com...
> All it takes is one quick combination and the guy goes down. Screw all
> this kung fu crap.

I figure this is likely a troll, but....
It completely depends on the martial art. Imo, an amateur boxer would have
about even odds against a karate guy and better than even odds against a tkd
with the same amount of training, at least on average. Too many McDojos
hand out new belts to people training in karate for no other reason other
than to keep them coming back, and the punching techniques taught in most
karate and tae-kwon-do schools are generally poor, whereas boxers are taught
to fight on the premise of knocking the other guy out. A boxer will also
generally know how to take a punch or really any sort of striking blow
better than a tkd or karate guy, as they rarely if ever employ full contact
sparring in their training. And while a kick to the head will often end a
fight, the chances of connecting with one are far slimmer than the chances
of landing a hard punch to an opponent's jaw.

At any rate, as far as striking martial arts go (and boxing imo is just
another martial art), mixed-martial arts have shown that muay thai
kickboxing comes out on top, while regular boxing is good in a supplemental
role. Brazillian jiu-jitsu and amateur wrestling are the other two Pillar
Martial-Arts that are the foundation of modern Mixed Martial-Arts fighting,
and some people also like judo and aikido. Any world class MMA fighter
today in an organization like UFC or PrideFC is going to study both stand-up
and ground fighting. Really though, if you're only well-versed in one form
of martial arts and you find yourself in a fight:
Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu > Muay Thai kickboxing or amateur wrestling > boxing >
karate > taekwondo

Just imo.

-Beans





24 Mar 2005 13:27:50
T
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

drsmith666@aol.com wrote:
> Sheldon wrote:
>
>>"Lionel" <stevelionelyoung@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:4cfa4559.0503232028.5258f7a8@posting.google.com...
>>
>>>All it takes is one quick combination and the guy goes down. Screw
>
> all
>
>>>this kung fu crap.
>>
>>We used to argue this in Karate class all the time. Given both guys
>
> are
>
>>about the same size, I'd go with the martial artist. Punching is
>
> allowed in
>
>>Karate, and many boxers use the same techniques martial artists use
>
> to
>
>>increase power. Problem is most boxers aren't expecting a foot up
>
> side the
>
>>head. :-)
>
>
> thEN HOW COME NOBODY COULD TAKE TANK ABBOTT DOWN WITH A "KICK TO THE
> HEAD" IN UFC 2?? THEY SHOWED "CLIPS" OF ALL THESE ASSHOLES IN ACTION
> BEFORE THE FIGHT DOING FLIPS, KICKS, AND SUBMISSIONS THAT LOOKED PRETTY
> IMPRESSIVE, BUT TANK TOOK THEM ALL OUT WITH STRIKES. PURE STRIKES.
> HELL, THAT ONE DUDE THAT WAS "290 LBS OF PURE MUSCLE" THEY HAD TO STOP
> THE FIGHT BECAUSE HE COULDN'T DEFEND HIMSELF AGAIN'ST TANK.
>

Tank lost a lot of matches....


24 Mar 2005 06:01:48
Chris Tsao
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

<<the guys that won it or reached the finals were
guys that did simple stuff. No back flips or roundhouse Hollywood
shit. >>

All I know is that nobody can deal with me when I use my "golden
chicken stands on one leg" move!



24 Mar 2005 07:13:25
Chas
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

"Ray" <ray_usenet@yahoo.com > wrote
> What makes you think the boxer cannot knee you in the groin? See, this
> is the thing about some people. They always say about eyejab,
> groinshot, bites, etc. What they seem to always conveniently forget is
> that the boxing/BJJ/muay thai guy can do the same to them.

And a tennis player can strangle you with a ball; or hit you with his
racket- golfers actually have metal clubs, and I don't even want to tell you
what baseball players are capable of lest I offend children and adults of
slight constitution.
The reality is that boxers are open to a number of attacks that they're not
comfortable with. It isn't that they couldn't do it themselves, it's that
they don't see it coming because they haven't practiced with/against it.
Boxing tends to attract bodynazi's- given the same guy goes to a KF school
(for example) and works as assiduously at what he does as the boxer is
liable to do, the breadth of technique will be more useful than the
restricted technic of a sporting application.

Chas




24 Mar 2005 08:15:43
John Smith
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week


"Lionel" <stevelionelyoung@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:4cfa4559.0503232028.5258f7a8@posting.google.com...
> All it takes is one quick combination and the guy goes down. Screw all
> this kung fu crap.

As a long time lurker, I have to admire your choice of
introductory topic. I can't think of another position as likely
to be accepted in RMA ... unless you also added in tae kwon do
as well.

-JS




24 Mar 2005 22:22:33
Fraser Johnston
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week


"Chas" <chasclementsSPOOF@comcast.net > wrote in message
news:bKidnYst5u6fVt_fRVn-2g@comcast.com...

> And a tennis player can strangle you with a ball; or hit you with his
> racket- golfers actually have metal clubs, and I don't even want to tell
> you what baseball players are capable of lest I offend children and adults
> of slight constitution.
> The reality is that boxers are open to a number of attacks that they're
> not comfortable with. It isn't that they couldn't do it themselves, it's
> that they don't see it coming because they haven't practiced with/against
> it.
> Boxing tends to attract bodynazi's- given the same guy goes to a KF school
> (for example) and works as assiduously at what he does as the boxer is
> liable to do, the breadth of technique will be more useful than the
> restricted technic of a sporting application.

Only if they practice in alive manner or they will freak the first time they
get hit. I was rolling with one of our resident monsters yesterday, I call
him Joe The Freight Train. He accidentally headbutted me right in the cheek
bone. It hurt. A lot. I looked at the instructor who was watching to see
if he'd stop us and he said "Don't worry about it keeping going." After the
class he mentioned how this is the only martial art he had seen where
someone would take a hit like that and keep going. Normally it would be off
to sit on the side for an icepack. A similar thing happened about 3 months
ago where GDS kicked me in the head during class. The point of this post is
that I have been hit in the head too much and I'm prone to rambling.

Fraser




24 Mar 2005 06:28:53
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week


SPORTfighter wrote:
> True dat.
> But boxers suck at other things...grappling...weapons...
> math...
>
> Gi

Re math:
Unless you hit one of these dudes

:)

Tomas



24 Mar 2005 06:44:09
Chris Tsao
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week


Chris Tsao wrote:

> All I know is that nobody can deal with me when I use my "golden
> chicken stands on one leg" move!

It's the golden chicken stands "in" one leg.
http://www.hungkuen.net/training-basicstances.htm

But more importantly, the boxer who I posted about a few posts above,
does the unicorn step (underneath the golden chicken stance) in one of
his tapes while throwing a left jab to get out of the line of fire. (I
think he said that that was a Willie Pep move too?) And he also throws
it as an uppercut (with his arm harldy even bent) to cut off the ring.



24 Mar 2005 14:47:28
Karim
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 06:44:09 -0800, Chris Tsao wrote:
>> All I know is that nobody can deal with me when I use my "golden
>> chicken stands on one leg" move!
>
> It's the golden chicken stands "in" one leg.
> http://www.hungkuen.net/training-basicstances.htm

'Crane Stance' sounds SO much less stupid than 'Golden Chicken Stance'...

--
Karim <remove SPAMFREE: krashad at SPAMorbisFREEuk dot com >




24 Mar 2005 14:56:52
GreenDistantStar
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week


"Fraser Johnston" <fraser@jcis.com.au > wrote in message
news:3ag0poF65jbq8U1@individual.net...

> Only if they practice in alive manner or they will freak the first time
> they get hit. I was rolling with one of our resident monsters yesterday,
> I call him Joe The Freight Train. He accidentally headbutted me right in
> the cheek bone. It hurt. A lot. I looked at the instructor who was
> watching to see if he'd stop us and he said "Don't worry about it keeping
> going." After the class he mentioned how this is the only martial art he
> had seen where someone would take a hit like that and keep going.

And your granite head!

Normally it would be off
> to sit on the side for an icepack. A similar thing happened about 3
> months ago where GDS kicked me in the head during class.

I didn't feel a thing, honest!

The point of this post is
> that I have been hit in the head too much and I'm prone to rambling.

Ha! I got similarly kicked a few weeks back. Almost KO and did take a couple
of mins then OK.

Anything that's truly concussive, you get off the mat.

GDS




24 Mar 2005 07:03:56
Ray
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week


Karim wrote:
> > It's the golden chicken stands "in" one leg.
> > http://www.hungkuen.net/training-basicstances.htm
>
> 'Crane Stance' sounds SO much less stupid than 'Golden Chicken
Stance'...

That'll prevent them from wearing that golden kungfu uniform, however.



24 Mar 2005 07:08:27
Ray
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week


Chris Tsao wrote:
> <<the guys that won it or reached the finals were
> guys that did simple stuff. No back flips or roundhouse Hollywood
> shit.>>
>
> All I know is that nobody can deal with me when I use my "golden
> chicken stands on one leg" move!

Cos they think you're showing them a dance instead of asking them to
spar?



24 Mar 2005 07:14:41
Chris Tsao
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week


Chris Tsao wrote:

If there are any rare
> moves that hardly anyone knows, I'll post them in here. Maybe my
tapes
> won't ever come? I sent away for them on the 7th. The eBayer only has
> 23 stars; maybe she doesn't plan on sending me my goods?

Hmmmmmm, I got this message at 9:58 a.m.. THis is not boding well so
far.

Dear Christopher D. Tsao (rigida7147@aol.com),


Please be advised that the following auction:

7139158301 - Superior Boxing With Don Familton (5 VHS Set)


was ended early by eBay. The auction was ended due to the account
suspension of the seller.
All results for this auction are null and void.


Regards,
Customer Support (Trust and Safety Department)
eBay Inc



24 Mar 2005 10:26:32
Badger North
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

On 23 Mar 2005 20:28:39 -0800, stevelionelyoung@hotmail.com (Lionel)
wrote:

>All it takes is one quick combination and the guy goes down. Screw all
>this kung fu crap.

Damn, I hate when I agree with the trolls.

Badger Jones
www.youngforest.ca
"Hard to be a freak when the carnival's not in town." - Chas Clements


24 Mar 2005 16:02:22
David L. Burkhead
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

I don't know. Ask Gene Labell.

--
David L. Burkhead "Dum Vivimus Vivamus"
mailto:dburkhead@asmicro.com "While we live, let us live."
My webcomic Cold Servings
http://coldservings.keenspace.com
Updates Wednesdays


"Badger North" <young_forest@REEEMOVEhotmail.com > wrote in message
news:r0n54192ktuh9s02lbinmsaocng2muuo3n@4ax.com...
> On 23 Mar 2005 20:28:39 -0800, stevelionelyoung@hotmail.com (Lionel)
> wrote:
>
> >All it takes is one quick combination and the guy goes down. Screw all
> >this kung fu crap.
>
> Damn, I hate when I agree with the trolls.
>
> Badger Jones
> www.youngforest.ca
> "Hard to be a freak when the carnival's not in town." - Chas Clements




24 Mar 2005 10:03:19
Chris Tsao
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week


Ray wrote:
> Chris Tsao wrote:
> > <<the guys that won it or reached the finals were
> > guys that did simple stuff. No back flips or roundhouse Hollywood
> > shit.>>
> >
> > All I know is that nobody can deal with me when I use my "golden
> > chicken stands on one leg" move!
>
> Cos they think you're showing them a dance instead of asking them to
> spar?

Oh. :( That explains why my "the drunken sparrow tackles the charging
rhino" technique never works for me.



24 Mar 2005 18:08:41
Inaccessible
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

In article <1111687399.890272.181600@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com >,
"Chris Tsao" <rigida7147@aol.com > wrote:

> Ray wrote:
> > Chris Tsao wrote:
> > > <<the guys that won it or reached the finals were
> > > guys that did simple stuff. No back flips or roundhouse Hollywood
> > > shit.>>
> > >
> > > All I know is that nobody can deal with me when I use my "golden
> > > chicken stands on one leg" move!
> >
> > Cos they think you're showing them a dance instead of asking them to
> > spar?
>
> Oh. :( That explains why my "the drunken sparrow tackles the charging
> rhino" technique never works for me.

A good old ridge hand will totally f*ck up the best boxer or chicken
fighter.


24 Mar 2005 11:16:27
Chas
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

"Fraser Johnston" <fraser@jcis.com.au > wrote
>> Boxing tends to attract bodynazi's- given the same guy goes to a KF
>> school (for example) and works as assiduously at what he does as the
>> boxer is liable to do, the breadth of technique will be more useful than
>> the restricted technic of a sporting application.
> Only if they practice in alive manner or they will freak the first time
> they get hit.

Gosh; really !?
You mean that if they don't fight they're not prepared to fight???
Whoa!
Have the Boy bring me a telephone; I need to call everybody I know and give
them the news.

> ......He accidentally headbutted me right in the cheek bone. It hurt. A
> lot.

Mine tend to wake up later.
Headbutts are so integral to our system that you don't even know when
they're hidden sometimes.
I was showing a technique to one of my students- a Sergeant of Marines- and
showing how the head position was crucial to the 'impetus' in the
application. As we joined, I knocked him cold without ever 'meaning to'
(very embarrassing). When I went to my teachers to receive corrections to my
own form, I asked about it and was shown.
Since then, it's become one of my 'automatic' kinds of responses; borne of
the posture itself rather than a 'thrown' blow.

Chas




24 Mar 2005 10:22:04
I can't believe it's not a Bad
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week


Chris Tsao wrote:
> Ray wrote:
> > What makes you think the boxer cannot knee you in the groin?
>
> Bareknuckle boxers used to kick.

Which era? The first known english pugilistic rules were Broughton's
of 1743 which specified no punches or grapples below the waist.

Pre-Broughton it wasn't unheard of for a man to take the boot to a
downed adversary.

All the way up until the Marquis de Queensbury rules of 1867 trips,
sweeps, and judo-esque throws were legal. Perhaps that's what you're
thinking of.

Outside of that only Boxe Francaise (Savate Kick-Boxing) allowed
kicking.


> Their kicks were low.

Not generally they didn't. Kicks are not illustrated in any of the
period Pugilistic manuals, nor are they particularly refered to. The
closest you get is one manual that decrys footsweeps and trips as
low-brow commoner's tricks.

This isn't to say that kicks were unknown or unused in general
rough-and-tumble. They certainly were. Just not in "official" Boxing
Contests. For that matter, some kicks were used in certain *wrestling*
styles. Those were generally kicks to the shin with *hard* soled
leather shoes. There was also a shin kicking sport/art called Purring.
nasty.



> I sent away for
> a videotape that covers boxing's dirty tricks.

By who?


> If there are any rare
> moves that hardly anyone knows, I'll post them in here.

Better to examine classic Pugilism manuals, which abound on the 'net.
Look at Mendoza's lessons, "The Celebrated Game Chicken"'s manual, _The
Art and Practice of Boxing_, or Godfrey's _Boxing_ as examples.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk



24 Mar 2005 10:27:58
I can't believe it's not a Bad
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week


Chris Tsao wrote:

> And boxing is kung fu. I have boxing manuals and a few dozen boxing
> instruction videos and they explain trapping arms, joint locks, all
> these foreign-looking ways of stepping etc.. I got this boxing tape a
> few months ago or a month and a half ago and this guy throws a
> half-uppercut in the air (and purposely misses), then twists his fist
> and shoots it out straight. That's snake style but with a fist and I
> think he said that that's a Willie Pep punch?

That depends on how you define "Kung Fu."

It's true that in Classic Pugilism there were lots of techs that you
don't see in modern boxing. Fitzsimmons book clearly illustrates (in
photo's no less) a feint-step-close-in-puch (The Fitzsimmon's Shift),
back-fists, spinning back-fists, & the like. The an elbow up "guard"
follwed by a back-fist to the nose (the "Chopper") was said to be a
favorite of Mendoza. Drop-Step punches, lunge punches, trips, sweeps,
hip-throws, etc. were all standard fare in classic Pugilism.

For more discussion, drop by the [ClassicPugilism] yahoo list
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/classicpugilism). The list has been a
bit slow lately, maybe you could liven it up a bit.

Peace favor your sword (IH),
Kirk



24 Mar 2005 10:37:22
I can't believe it's not a Bad
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week


Bean Fried Pork wrote:

> I figure this is likely a troll, but....

Since when has that made any difference?


> whereas boxers are taught
> to fight on the premise of knocking the other guy out.

How many of them are taught how to puch *without* the benefit of wraps
and gloves?


> A boxer will also
> generally know how to take a punch or really any sort of striking
blow
> better than a tkd or karate guy, as they rarely if ever employ full
contact
> sparring in their training.

And are also somewhat handicapped by not having large gloves to act as
a shield. Thankfully they can still bob and weave so all is not lost.


> And while a kick to the head will often end a
> fight, the chances of connecting with one are far slimmer than the
chances
> of landing a hard punch to an opponent's jaw.

Which can be pretty easy if the eedjit either won't keep his hands up
or can't keep range.


> Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu > Muay Thai kickboxing or amateur wrestling >
boxing >
> karate > taekwondo

Many people agree with you with but few minor adjustments.

Don't get me wrong, modern boxing has lots of advantages. But it's
training method and narow focus also leave a few holes. Est vita.

Peace favor your sword (IH),
Kirk



24 Mar 2005 10:39:04
I can't believe it's not a Bad
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week


David L. Burkhead wrote:
> I don't know. Ask Gene Labell.

What does inventing the telephone have to do with it?

Peace favor your sword (IH),
Kirk



24 Mar 2005 19:43:21
Whippet
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

A wrestler will always beat a boxer, a boxer will always beat a kicker

Is the conventional wisdom on this old tired argument.




24 Mar 2005 12:02:36
Chris Tsao
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week


I can't believe it's not a Badger! wrote:

(The Fitzsimmon's Shift),

Of course, the ol' "the monkey leaps into the icey river and snatches
the carp out of a bear's paw" technique.

> For more discussion, drop by the [ClassicPugilism] yahoo list
> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/classicpugilism). The list has been a
> bit slow lately, maybe you could liven it up a bit.

Thanks, I have to check this out.



24 Mar 2005 13:50:33
Chas
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

"Whippet" <gareth.jenkins1@ntlworld.com > wrote
>A wrestler will always beat a boxer, a boxer will always beat a kicker
> Is the conventional wisdom on this old tired argument.

Don't know who you heard that from, but you ought to go slap them for lying
to you. Wrestlers lost consistently to judoka- Gene LeBell a good example,
various Japanese 'wrestlers' as well.
Boxers lost to karateka unless the rules were skewed in their favor (no
kicks or throws for example)- Mas Oyama fought anybody that stood up both
boxing and wrestling.

Chas




24 Mar 2005 23:56:37
Ulrich Mayring
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

Chas wrote:
>
> The reality is that boxers are open to a number of attacks that they're not
> comfortable with.

No, they're not. Under the rules of boxing these attacks are not allowed
and will disqualify the opponent using them. Or do you suggest a boxer
should fight a Kung Fu guy under Kung Fu rules? Well, how about we give
Allan Iverson a tennis racket and put him up against Andre Agassi?

These types of contests, where one participant is favored by the rules,
are extremely stupid.

Under a "no rules" situation the tougher guy would win most of the time,
never mind the background.

Ulrich


25 Mar 2005 08:03:28
Fraser Johnston
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week


"Chas" <chasclementsSPOOF@comcast.net > wrote in message
news:ipKdnbMyvuWLtd7fRVn-oA@comcast.com...
> "Whippet" <gareth.jenkins1@ntlworld.com> wrote
>>A wrestler will always beat a boxer, a boxer will always beat a kicker
>> Is the conventional wisdom on this old tired argument.
>
> Don't know who you heard that from, but you ought to go slap them for
> lying to you. Wrestlers lost consistently to judoka- Gene LeBell a good
> example, various Japanese 'wrestlers' as well.
> Boxers lost to karateka unless the rules were skewed in their favor (no
> kicks or throws for example)- Mas Oyama fought anybody that stood up both
> boxing and wrestling.

Gene isn't exactly your average judoka.

Fraser




24 Mar 2005 18:20:32
Conkie
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

Fraser Johnston wrote:
> "Chas" <chasclementsSPOOF@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:ipKdnbMyvuWLtd7fRVn-oA@comcast.com...
>
>>"Whippet" <gareth.jenkins1@ntlworld.com> wrote
>>
>>>A wrestler will always beat a boxer, a boxer will always beat a kicker
>>>Is the conventional wisdom on this old tired argument.
>>
>>Don't know who you heard that from, but you ought to go slap them for
>>lying to you. Wrestlers lost consistently to judoka- Gene LeBell a good
>>example, various Japanese 'wrestlers' as well.
>>Boxers lost to karateka unless the rules were skewed in their favor (no
>>kicks or throws for example)- Mas Oyama fought anybody that stood up both
>>boxing and wrestling.
>
>
> Gene isn't exactly your average judoka.
>
> Fraser

I agree - those "Style A beats Style B beats Style C" arguments are
frivolous - it comes down to individuals (ie: Fred Ettish ain't no Mas
Oyama - just like Art Jimmerson ain't no 1985 Mike Tyson).

Ultimately, the Better Man (that day) wins - not the better style.

Conkie


24 Mar 2005 19:42:03
David L. Burkhead
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

I can't believe it's not a Badger! wrote:
> David L. Burkhead wrote:
>> I don't know. Ask Gene Labell.
>
> What does inventing the telephone have to do with it?

I'll presume that this is meant as a joke and not that you're confusing Gene
LeBell with Alexander Graham Bell. :p

--
David L. Burkhead "May I be just half the person
mailto:dburkhuad@comcast.net my dog thinks I am."
My webcomic Cold Servings
http://coldservings.keenspace.com
Updates Wednesdays




25 Mar 2005 00:40:59
Vamp
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week


"Lionel" <stevelionelyoung@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:4cfa4559.0503232028.5258f7a8@posting.google.com...
> All it takes is one quick combination and the guy goes down. Screw all
> this kung fu crap.


what if the kung fu guy came in with an even quicker combination?
or what if the kung fu guy was using a kwan do or butterfly knives :)

but more importantly who gives a damn! watching UFC and i get surprised a
lot by who wins the fights sometimes, i think knowing some kind of grappling
technique is best IMO.

mixed matial arts against someone who just knows tradition boxing, the boxer
i feel will lose providing he never gets a good hit in there in time.




25 Mar 2005 01:00:28
brody
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

Vamp wrote:
> "Lionel" <stevelionelyoung@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:4cfa4559.0503232028.5258f7a8@posting.google.com...
>
>>All it takes is one quick combination and the guy goes down. Screw all
>>this kung fu crap.
>
>
>
> what if the kung fu guy came in with an even quicker combination?
> or what if the kung fu guy was using a kwan do or butterfly knives :)

what if the boxer uses a colt 45 ?

>
> but more importantly who gives a damn! watching UFC and i get surprised a
> lot by who wins the fights sometimes, i think knowing some kind of grappling
> technique is best IMO.
>
> mixed matial arts against someone who just knows tradition boxing, the boxer
> i feel will lose providing he never gets a good hit in there in time.
>
>


25 Mar 2005 09:04:17
Fraser Johnston
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week


"Vamp" <none@none.com > wrote in message
news:Yr6dnZLpCoCDw97fRVnyrA@pipex.net...
>
> "Lionel" <stevelionelyoung@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:4cfa4559.0503232028.5258f7a8@posting.google.com...
>> All it takes is one quick combination and the guy goes down. Screw all
>> this kung fu crap.
>
>
> what if the kung fu guy came in with an even quicker combination?
> or what if the kung fu guy was using a kwan do or butterfly knives :)
>
> but more importantly who gives a damn! watching UFC and i get surprised a
> lot by who wins the fights sometimes, i think knowing some kind of
> grappling technique is best IMO.
>
> mixed matial arts against someone who just knows tradition boxing, the
> boxer i feel will lose providing he never gets a good hit in there in
> time.

Boxers always have a punchers chance. But usually they get taken down and
submitted in short order. Case in point would be Art "One Glove" Jimmerson
Vs Royce Gracie. It wasn't even remotely fair.

Fraser




24 Mar 2005 17:29:53
Ray
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week


Ulrich Mayring wrote:
> Chas wrote:
> >
> > The reality is that boxers are open to a number of attacks that
they're not
> > comfortable with.
>
> No, they're not. Under the rules of boxing these attacks are not
allowed
> and will disqualify the opponent using them. Or do you suggest a
boxer
> should fight a Kung Fu guy under Kung Fu rules? Well, how about we
give
> Allan Iverson a tennis racket and put him up against Andre Agassi?

I think that's not what Chas was saying--regardless of what rules, if
you're not used to an attack you are more "open" to it. For instance
pure boxers are not used to deal with low kicks. Kyokushin guys are not
used to punches to the face. etc.

> Under a "no rules" situation the tougher guy would win most of the
time,
> never mind the background.

I agree, but training for an attack still helps. For instance, for
people who are untrained, their reaction to a low kick is to drop their
arms to block it. Dangerous stuff.

> Ulrich



24 Mar 2005 17:44:38
Ray
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week


Fraser Johnston wrote:
> "Chas" <chasclementsSPOOF@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:ipKdnbMyvuWLtd7fRVn-oA@comcast.com...
> > "Whippet" <gareth.jenkins1@ntlworld.com> wrote
> > Don't know who you heard that from, but you ought to go slap them
for
> > lying to you. Wrestlers lost consistently to judoka- Gene LeBell a
good
> > example, various Japanese 'wrestlers' as well.
> > Boxers lost to karateka unless the rules were skewed in their favor
(no
> > kicks or throws for example)- Mas Oyama fought anybody that stood
up both
> > boxing and wrestling.
>
> Gene isn't exactly your average judoka.
>
> Fraser

Mas Oyama is quite a world apart from your "average" karateka too.



24 Mar 2005 20:32:37
YoJimbo
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

In article <r0n54192ktuh9s02lbinmsaocng2muuo3n@4ax.com >, young_forest@REEEMOVEhotmail.com says...
>
>On 23 Mar 2005 20:28:39 -0800, stevelionelyoung@hotmail.com (Lionel)
>wrote:
>
>>All it takes is one quick combination and the guy goes down. Screw all
>>this kung fu crap.
>
>Damn, I hate when I agree with the trolls.
>Badger Jones

You and me both.
This really sucks. We goin' downhill, Badg.
JS








24 Mar 2005 20:54:42
TripleW864
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

In article <4cfa4559.0503232028.5258f7a8@posting.google.com >, Lionel
<stevelionelyoung@hotmail.com > wrote:

> All it takes is one quick combination and the guy goes down. Screw all
> this kung fu crap.

Ah, but a true martial artist could use the momentum from the first
punch of that combination to throw the boxer off balance. A martial
artist could easily beat a boxer.

Heck, Roddy Piper (a professional wrestler) only lost to Mr. T (former
boxer) in a boxing match when he decided to stop throwing punches and
throw a bodyslam.

--
Winner - March Melee 2005


24 Mar 2005 18:59:21
zxcv
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week


Fraser Johnston wrote:
> Boxers always have a punchers chance. But usually they get taken
down and
> submitted in short order. Case in point would be Art "One Glove"
Jimmerson
> Vs Royce Gracie. It wasn't even remotely fair.
>
> Fraser

Here is a better example: Melton Bowen easily beaten by (apparently)
newbie grappler Steve Jennum.



24 Mar 2005 20:05:38
DavidN
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

All it takes is one quick combination and the guy goes down. Screw all

> this kung fu crap.
As a long time lurker, I have to admire your choice of
introductory topic. I can't think of another position as likely
to be accepted in RMA ... unless you also added in tae kwon do >>>

That's real deep and insightful. It is in the same realm as *My brother
is bigger than your brother.*



24 Mar 2005 22:34:51
YoJimbo
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

In article <1111723538.853475.12170@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com >, Focaipoint@aol.com says...
>
> All it takes is one quick combination and the guy goes down. Screw all
>
>> this kung fu crap.
>
>As a long time lurker,

Not long enough for our tastes...

>I have to admire your choice of introductory topic.

Introductory? This is about the zillionth time we've been over this
material, buddy. And we're still arguing.
It's only "introductory" to rubes like you who aren't hip to
the program.

>I can't think of another position as likely
>to be accepted in RMA ... unless you also added in tae kwon do >>>

Well, this tells me you're a TKD student and you're feeling a little
resentful at this point. Understandable. We don't care that much because
we feel anybody in TKD should be laughed at instead of understood,
but it really is understandable...if we tried. Which we didn't...

>That's real deep and insightful. It is in the same realm as *My brother
>is bigger than your brother.*

Well, mine might be or might not, but this is a valid question.
How much does your brother weigh? How tall is he?
I'll tell you my brother's approximate measurements when I get your info
and we'll just see who's got the bigger brother...

More importantly, from the tone of your post (I didn't know posts had
tones, but there ya go...that's how bad this one is), I'm thinking
my brother could beat up your brother.
He can't fight worth a lick, you understand, but you're giving me
nothing here that suggests yours can fight either.
JS




















25 Mar 2005 05:58:49
Damion
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

What if the boxer is drinking colt 45?

-Damion


"brody" <jbrody@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:MoJ0e.775971$8l.84460@pd7tw1no...
> Vamp wrote:
> > "Lionel" <stevelionelyoung@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:4cfa4559.0503232028.5258f7a8@posting.google.com...
> >
> >>All it takes is one quick combination and the guy goes down. Screw all
> >>this kung fu crap.
> >
> >
> >
> > what if the kung fu guy came in with an even quicker combination?
> > or what if the kung fu guy was using a kwan do or butterfly knives :)
>
> what if the boxer uses a colt 45 ?
>
> >
> > but more importantly who gives a damn! watching UFC and i get surprised
a
> > lot by who wins the fights sometimes, i think knowing some kind of
grappling
> > technique is best IMO.
> >
> > mixed matial arts against someone who just knows tradition boxing, the
boxer
> > i feel will lose providing he never gets a good hit in there in time.
> >
> >




25 Mar 2005 06:53:18
joe
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

boxing skills are fundamental to any fighting art, (boxing is the oldest
martial art). take boxing away and they have nothing
the best style is that of someone who can box, move, graple (with ground
skills) and has great strength and fitness

boxing is a core skill that is practiced under stricter rules than others.
allow boxers to graple (and develope these skills) and he will murder dem
bum. see the best mma for reference... boxing and grapling (ground skills)
are their bread and butter. unfortunately their level of both is way-way
down on the boxing skills we have seen in the leonards and haglers.




"Lionel" <stevelionelyoung@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:4cfa4559.0503232028.5258f7a8@posting.google.com...
> All it takes is one quick combination and the guy goes down. Screw all
> this kung fu crap.




25 Mar 2005 07:37:57
coldblood
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week


"David L. Burkhead" <dburkhuad@comcast.net > wrote in message
news:NcGdnTCAJeBiwd7fRVn-1g@comcast.com...
>I can't believe it's not a Badger! wrote:
>> David L. Burkhead wrote:
>>> I don't know. Ask Gene Labell.
>>
>> What does inventing the telephone have to do with it?
>
> I'll presume that this is meant as a joke and not that you're confusing
> Gene
> LeBell with Alexander Graham Bell. :p
>

cut him soem slack. hes been hit in the head a lot. he cant even recal where
he forgot his head gear at this point.

andrew

> --
> David L. Burkhead "May I be just half the person
> mailto:dburkhuad@comcast.net my dog thinks I am."
> My webcomic Cold Servings
> http://coldservings.keenspace.com
> Updates Wednesdays
>
>




25 Mar 2005 09:23:26
brody
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

Damion wrote:
> What if the boxer is drinking colt 45?
>
> -Damion

what if the boxer is driving a Dodge Colt ?



>
>
> "brody" <jbrody@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:MoJ0e.775971$8l.84460@pd7tw1no...
>
>>Vamp wrote:
>>
>>>"Lionel" <stevelionelyoung@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>news:4cfa4559.0503232028.5258f7a8@posting.google.com...
>>>
>>>
>>>>All it takes is one quick combination and the guy goes down. Screw all
>>>>this kung fu crap.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>what if the kung fu guy came in with an even quicker combination?
>>>or what if the kung fu guy was using a kwan do or butterfly knives :)
>>
>>what if the boxer uses a colt 45 ?
>>
>>
>>>but more importantly who gives a damn! watching UFC and i get surprised
>
> a
>
>>>lot by who wins the fights sometimes, i think knowing some kind of
>
> grappling
>
>>>technique is best IMO.
>>>
>>>mixed matial arts against someone who just knows tradition boxing, the
>
> boxer
>
>>>i feel will lose providing he never gets a good hit in there in time.
>>>
>>>
>
>
>


25 Mar 2005 10:18:45
Kevin Lowe
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

In article <iMQ0e.777705$Xk.352042@pd7tw3no >,
brody <jbrody@hotmail.com > wrote:

> Damion wrote:
> > What if the boxer is drinking colt 45?
>
> what if the boxer is driving a Dodge Colt ?

What if he's got a dodgy colt in a box?

Kevin Lowe,
Tasmania.


25 Mar 2005 05:09:19
Chris Tsao
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week


I can't believe it's not a Badger! wrote:
> Chris Tsao wrote:
> > Ray wrote:
> > > What makes you think the boxer cannot knee you in the groin?
> >
> > Bareknuckle boxers used to kick.
>
> Which era? The first known english pugilistic rules were Broughton's
> of 1743 which specified no punches or grapples below the waist.
>
> Pre-Broughton it wasn't unheard of for a man to take the boot to a
> downed adversary.
>
> All the way up until the Marquis de Queensbury rules of 1867 trips,
> sweeps, and judo-esque throws were legal. Perhaps that's what you're
> thinking of.
>
> Outside of that only Boxe Francaise (Savate Kick-Boxing) allowed
> kicking.
>
>
> > Their kicks were low.
>
> Not generally they didn't. Kicks are not illustrated in any of the
> period Pugilistic manuals, nor are they particularly refered to. The
> closest you get is one manual that decrys footsweeps and trips as
> low-brow commoner's tricks.
>
> This isn't to say that kicks were unknown or unused in general
> rough-and-tumble. They certainly were. Just not in "official"
Boxing
> Contests. For that matter, some kicks were used in certain
*wrestling*
> styles. Those were generally kicks to the shin with *hard* soled
> leather shoes. There was also a shin kicking sport/art called
Purring.
> nasty.
>
>
>
> > I sent away for
> > a videotape that covers boxing's dirty tricks.
>
> By who?
>
>
> > If there are any rare
> > moves that hardly anyone knows, I'll post them in here.
>
> Better to examine classic Pugilism manuals, which abound on the 'net.
> Look at Mendoza's lessons, "The Celebrated Game Chicken"'s manual,
_The
> Art and Practice of Boxing_, or Godfrey's _Boxing_ as examples.
>
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk

Around 20 years ago, I read in a boxing magazine that boxers used to
kick. It didn't say which era. If memory serves, the article was about
contests that were held in Hong Kong (or China) between sailers who
boxed and Chinese martial artists. It might've been a kung fu magazine.
On second thought it was. Now I remember, the article listed reasons
why people think that wing chun came from boxing. The author just said
that boxers kicked and the kicks were low. He didn't say what era or if
they kicked the chinese fighters.

According to at least one of my Champ Thomas books, boxers kicked to
cheat and fight dirty.



25 Mar 2005 05:18:48
I can't believe it's not a Bad
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week


Chris Tsao wrote:
> Around 20 years ago, I read in a boxing magazine that boxers used to
> kick. It didn't say which era. If memory serves, the article was
about
> contests that were held in Hong Kong (or China) between sailers who
> boxed and Chinese martial artists. It might've been a kung fu
magazine.
> On second thought it was. Now I remember, the article listed reasons
> why people think that wing chun came from boxing. The author just
said
> that boxers kicked and the kicks were low. He didn't say what era or
if
> they kicked the chinese fighters.

I read that or a similar article in a Black Belt Magazine ages ago.
One of the author's primary evidences was the similarity of stances and
arm positions. The illustration he showed for the Boxer came from the
London Prize Fighting Rules era.

I can assure you that during the LPF erra kicking was strictly
prohibited.

Not that Boxers *couldn't* kick if they were off scuffling on the docks
or something. Just not in the ring.

> According to at least one of my Champ Thomas books, boxers kicked to
> cheat and fight dirty.

Note that this is acknowledged as against the rules.

Peace favor your sword (IH),
Kirk



25 Mar 2005 08:22:12
Rabid_Weasel
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the w

David L. Burkhead wrote:
> I can't believe it's not a Badger! wrote:
> > David L. Burkhead wrote:
> >> I don't know. Ask Gene Labell.
> >
> > What does inventing the telephone have to do with it?
>
> I'll presume that this is meant as a joke and not that you're confusing
Gene
> LeBell with Alexander Graham Bell. :p

Serves me right for deciding not to include a smiley.

Yeah. It's a joke.

Peace favor your sword (IH),
Kirk



25 Mar 2005 08:24:08
Rabid_Weasel
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the w


coldblood wrote:
> "David L. Burkhead" <dburkhuad@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:NcGdnTCAJeBiwd7fRVn-1g@comcast.com...
> >I can't believe it's not a Badger! wrote:
> >> David L. Burkhead wrote:
> >>> I don't know. Ask Gene Labell.
> >>
> >> What does inventing the telephone have to do with it?
> >
> > I'll presume that this is meant as a joke and not that you're
confusing
> > Gene
> > LeBell with Alexander Graham Bell. :p
> >
>
> cut him soem slack. hes been hit in the head a lot. he cant even recal
where
> he forgot his head gear at this point.

Hey, it wasn't so bad when I was just getting smacked with a fist. When
we moved up to sticks things really got interesting. Sticks are kinda
long and hard and... I like eggs.

..what were we talking about?

Peace favor your sword (IH),
Kirk



25 Mar 2005 05:25:32
zxcv
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week


joe wrote:
> boxing is the oldest
> martial art

Older than wrestling? I doubt it. I also doubt that is older than
rock-fu.



25 Mar 2005 13:55:56
ViNNY
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

Lionel wrote:
> All it takes is one quick combination and the guy goes down. Screw all
> this kung fu crap.

I know this is a troll, god damnit... but I can't help myself.

Art Jimmerson vs. Royce Gracie. Muhammad Ali vs. Antonio Inoki.
Jimmerson submitted as soon as he was taken to the ground, having not
landed a single shot. Ali enforced rules that meant the fight couldn't
go to the ground, so Inoki held him at bay with kicks for 15 rounds.

Boxing is a great sport, and boxers are tough guys - but boxers train
for the rules of boxing. A kick has a longer reach, and a good martial
artist can kick *real* hard, so they can just keep kicking the boxer in
the thigh to keep out of the range of his punches.

-Vin


25 Mar 2005 14:02:05
ViNNY
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

Ulrich Mayring wrote:
> Chas wrote:
>
>>
>> The reality is that boxers are open to a number of attacks that
>> they're not comfortable with.
>
>
> No, they're not. Under the rules of boxing these attacks are not allowed
> and will disqualify the opponent using them. Or do you suggest a boxer
> should fight a Kung Fu guy under Kung Fu rules? Well, how about we give
> Allan Iverson a tennis racket and put him up against Andre Agassi?
>
> These types of contests, where one participant is favored by the rules,
> are extremely stupid.
>
> Under a "no rules" situation the tougher guy would win most of the time,
> never mind the background.

Mike Tyson is probably a tougher guy than, say, Tito Ortiz, but Ortiz
trains every day to take a guy off his feet and pound them from the
mounted position. He can do this pretty easily against guys who spend
weeks training specifically to avoid his takedowns. Tyson doesn't have
to worry about being taken down and fighting on the ground, so I'm
guessing he hasn't had much training on how to defend against it, and
once he's down he's at the mercy of the more experienced guy in that
position.

I agree with your argument - the tougher guy will usually win - *unless*
you're fighting a guy who's sport is MMA. Two boxers no rules - tougher
guy wins. A boxer vs. a muay thai guy, no rules - tougher guy wins
depending on the muay thai fighter's kicking ability and reach vs. the
boxer's ability to withstand the kicks and get inside for the knockout
punch.

-Vin


25 Mar 2005 14:07:03
ViNNY
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

zxcv wrote:
> Fraser Johnston wrote:
>
>>Boxers always have a punchers chance. But usually they get taken
>
> down and
>
>>submitted in short order. Case in point would be Art "One Glove"
>
> Jimmerson
>
>>Vs Royce Gracie. It wasn't even remotely fair.
>>
>>Fraser
>
>
> Here is a better example: Melton Bowen easily beaten by (apparently)
> newbie grappler Steve Jennum.

I always pictured Jennum as having business cards that read:

STEVE JENNUM
Ninja Cop

-Vin


25 Mar 2005 06:36:44
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week


Define the phrase "good boxer".

Obviously, a professional fighter, an individual who's life is oriented
around physical combat and reducing opponents to unconsciousness, is
going to have the upper hand against a martial artist who trains for
sport or liesure and could care less about full contact, such as a
sport karate player.

On the other hand, a martial artist used to contact, such as a Muay
Thai kickoxer, could give the professional fighter a run for his money!

MARTIAL ARTS FOREVER!!!!



25 Mar 2005 14:45:48
Vamp
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week


"Chris Tsao" <rigida7147@aol.com > wrote in message
news:1111756159.584151.191020@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> I can't believe it's not a Badger! wrote:
>> Chris Tsao wrote:
>> > Ray wrote:
>> > > What makes you think the boxer cannot knee you in the groin?
>> >
>> > Bareknuckle boxers used to kick.
>>
>> Which era? The first known english pugilistic rules were Broughton's
>> of 1743 which specified no punches or grapples below the waist.
>>
>> Pre-Broughton it wasn't unheard of for a man to take the boot to a
>> downed adversary.
>>
>> All the way up until the Marquis de Queensbury rules of 1867 trips,
>> sweeps, and judo-esque throws were legal. Perhaps that's what you're
>> thinking of.
>>
>> Outside of that only Boxe Francaise (Savate Kick-Boxing) allowed
>> kicking.
>>
>>
>> > Their kicks were low.
>>
>> Not generally they didn't. Kicks are not illustrated in any of the
>> period Pugilistic manuals, nor are they particularly refered to. The
>> closest you get is one manual that decrys footsweeps and trips as
>> low-brow commoner's tricks.
>>
>> This isn't to say that kicks were unknown or unused in general
>> rough-and-tumble. They certainly were. Just not in "official"
> Boxing
>> Contests. For that matter, some kicks were used in certain
> *wrestling*
>> styles. Those were generally kicks to the shin with *hard* soled
>> leather shoes. There was also a shin kicking sport/art called
> Purring.
>> nasty.
>>
>>
>>
>> > I sent away for
>> > a videotape that covers boxing's dirty tricks.
>>
>> By who?
>>
>>
>> > If there are any rare
>> > moves that hardly anyone knows, I'll post them in here.
>>
>> Better to examine classic Pugilism manuals, which abound on the 'net.
>> Look at Mendoza's lessons, "The Celebrated Game Chicken"'s manual,
> _The
>> Art and Practice of Boxing_, or Godfrey's _Boxing_ as examples.
>>
>> Peace favor your sword,
>> Kirk
>
> Around 20 years ago, I read in a boxing magazine that boxers used to
> kick. It didn't say which era. If memory serves, the article was about
> contests that were held in Hong Kong (or China) between sailers who
> boxed and Chinese martial artists. It might've been a kung fu magazine.
> On second thought it was. Now I remember, the article listed reasons
> why people think that wing chun came from boxing. The author just said
> that boxers kicked and the kicks were low. He didn't say what era or if
> they kicked the chinese fighters.
>
> According to at least one of my Champ Thomas books, boxers kicked to
> cheat and fight dirty.
>

where i do martial arts they now do (starting a month or so back) chinese
kick boxing, i don't go as they train at 1pm on a sunday and that's to early
for me :) but my cousin goes and says it's not far off jeet kwan do.




25 Mar 2005 09:40:11
Badger North
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 20:32:37 -0600, Nice.Guy@Pushed.too.far.com
(YoJimbo) wrote:

>>Damn, I hate when I agree with the trolls.
>
>You and me both.
>This really sucks. We goin' downhill, Badg.

Or does this mean we're becoming trolls?

Badger Jones
www.youngforest.ca
"Hard to be a freak when the carnival's not in town." - Chas Clements


25 Mar 2005 08:41:10
Chas
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

"ViNNY" <a.vincent@SPAMANDDIEclara.co.uk > wrote
>......Tyson doesn't have to worry about being taken down and fighting on
>the ground, so I'm guessing he hasn't had much training on how to defend
>against it, and once he's down he's at the mercy of the more experienced
>guy in that position.

A boxer doesn't train for a lot of things that 'martial artists' do- kicks
and grappling are obvious, but there are a lot of boxing techniques that are
refined under the rules that outlaw certain other techniques as well.
Boxers don't train to either deliver or defend against 'low blows'- in fact,
they wear padding to protect themselves rather than train a posture that
defends the groin.
Boxers train with wrapped hands; both protection from the results of hitting
and obviating grasping techniques.
Boxers don't train the same sorts of headbutts, elbows, hammer fist, back
fist, or refined hand formations as m.a.'s.
Boxers don't train a bone shield attitude towards unexpected weapons or
techniques.

Chas




25 Mar 2005 11:49:45
Badger_South
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

On 25 Mar 2005 05:18:48 -0800, "I can't believe it's not a Badger!"
<lklawson@gmail.com > wrote:

>Not that Boxers *couldn't* kick if they were off scuffling on the docks
>or something. Just not in the ring.
>
>> According to at least one of my Champ Thomas books, boxers kicked to
>> cheat and fight dirty.
>
>Note that this is acknowledged as against the rules.
>
>Peace favor your sword (IH),
>Kirk

This is kinda silly, but it's not illegal to 'fake' a kick. Convincingly
raise your knee and the opponent sweeps his hand down opening up his chin
for a cross? Might work once. Definitely would be amusing to see.

-B



25 Mar 2005 17:08:01
Robert Low
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

Badger_South wrote:
> This is kinda silly, but it's not illegal to 'fake' a kick. Convincingly
> raise your knee and the opponent sweeps his hand down opening up his chin
> for a cross? Might work once. Definitely would be amusing to see.

Oddly enough, the equivalent *is* illegal in Olympic TKD. If you
fake a punch to the head as a distractor, you won't be scored
on any technique you land as a consequence. (Of course, if
you manage to bend the other guy's ribcage enough, you won't
mind that it didn't score :-))

I should think that it wouldn't take long for the equivalent
rule to appear in Western Boxing, if people started faking
illegal techniques to get an opening.

--
Rob


25 Mar 2005 11:54:21
Badger North
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 11:49:45 -0500, Badger_South <Badger@South.net >
wrote:

>This is kinda silly, but it's not illegal to 'fake' a kick. Convincingly
>raise your knee and the opponent sweeps his hand down opening up his chin
>for a cross? Might work once. Definitely would be amusing to see.

I remember reading about Don "The Dragon" Wilson during his ill-fated
attempt at being a pro-boxer. He just didn't make the transition from
kickboxing to boxing well, kept doing a crossover step ( la beginning
of a sidekick) and getting dinged by his opponent for his troubles.

Badger Jones
www.youngforest.ca
"Hard to be a freak when the carnival's not in town." - Chas Clements


25 Mar 2005 12:20:16
Badger_South
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 08:41:10 -0700, "Chas" <chasclementsSPOOF@comcast.net >
wrote:

>"ViNNY" <a.vincent@SPAMANDDIEclara.co.uk> wrote
>>......Tyson doesn't have to worry about being taken down and fighting on
>>the ground, so I'm guessing he hasn't had much training on how to defend
>>against it, and once he's down he's at the mercy of the more experienced
>>guy in that position.
>
>A boxer doesn't train for a lot of things that 'martial artists' do- kicks
>and grappling are obvious, but there are a lot of boxing techniques that are
>refined under the rules that outlaw certain other techniques as well.
>Boxers don't train to either deliver or defend against 'low blows'- in fact,
>they wear padding to protect themselves rather than train a posture that
>defends the groin.
>Boxers train with wrapped hands; both protection from the results of hitting
>and obviating grasping techniques.
>Boxers don't train the same sorts of headbutts, elbows, hammer fist, back
>fist, or refined hand formations as m.a.'s.
>Boxers don't train a bone shield attitude towards unexpected weapons or
>techniques.
>
>Chas

One quibble. If boxers already generally have more finely honed reflexes,
higher pain tolerance, bettter footwork and positioning skills, and great
endurance, it wouldn't take much additional training for them to acquire
these skills you describe.

What makes boxing hard to analyze is that it's easy to overlook the fact
that the individuals we see succeeding in boxing are already highly
selected for - the weak are weeded out by the strong competition. You don't
make it very far with a glass jaw. However you very often see guys trained
in exotics who lack an important essential - this lack is not exposed
because of the absence of resisting opponents. This missing essential can
be pain tolerance, untested jaw, low endurance, or improper reflexes. You
may be fast as greased lightning and have fists of stone, but if you can't
survive one punch to the head you're nothing, really.

I think we're still stuck in the stage where we're trying to pit exotics
against strong base art, or against guys with natural ability or strong
attributes.

Note also when you put guys just trained in exotics in a ring they are
often degraded to very bad boxing moves, swinging and flailing, then
typically gassing. This is because there's a temptation to substitute
'killer moves' for attribute acquisition.

The base arts are those that allow training with a fully resisting
opponent. Generally, stronger base art beats exotics. A base with ability
in more ranges of combat beats base arts with ability in a single range.
All of this is mediated by personal attribute level which is intimately
tied up with the training method. Kano said it first in 1886 - it's not the
training or secret killer moves - it's the training method.

-B



25 Mar 2005 12:22:38
Badger_South
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 13:55:56 +0000, ViNNY <a.vincent@SPAMANDDIEclara.co.uk >
wrote:

>Lionel wrote:
>> All it takes is one quick combination and the guy goes down. Screw all
>> this kung fu crap.
>
>I know this is a troll, god damnit... but I can't help myself.
>
>Art Jimmerson vs. Royce Gracie. Muhammad Ali vs. Antonio Inoki.
>Jimmerson submitted as soon as he was taken to the ground, having not
>landed a single shot. Ali enforced rules that meant the fight couldn't
>go to the ground, so Inoki held him at bay with kicks for 15 rounds.

Uh, did you even -see- the Ali - Inoki fight? Inoki spent the fight on the
ground in the crab position, afraid to get hit by Ali.

-B

>Boxing is a great sport, and boxers are tough guys - but boxers train
>for the rules of boxing. A kick has a longer reach, and a good martial
>artist can kick *real* hard, so they can just keep kicking the boxer in
>the thigh to keep out of the range of his punches.
>
>-Vin



25 Mar 2005 11:52:59
Chas
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week



"Badger_South" <Badger@South.net > wrote
> One quibble. If boxers already generally have more finely honed reflexes,
> higher pain tolerance, bettter footwork and positioning skills, and great
> endurance, it wouldn't take much additional training for them to acquire
> these skills you describe.

If your Auntie had wheels, she'd be a truck.
We're already talking a very fine distinction between disciplines in the
first place. 'Boxing' doesn't connote all Western Pugilism, it is solely the
Sport known by the name.
Ear-biting isn't 'Boxing' just because Tyson did it- it *is* a major
technique of Western Pugilism as identified for centuries. So is
'back-heeling', stomping the feet, the elbow, the rabbit punch, the
strangle, the various throws to the ground, the locks and compulsions and so
on.
I've boxed a little- knew Sonny Liston a bit, Ronny Lyle pretty good, Lyle
Alzado a bit, their camps. Found out very early that I didn't like it much,
so it hasn't been an emphasis for me. I've worked with Golden Glove trained
guys a lot and fought a lot of guys who's primary art was Boxing.
Boxers have a lot of very good points- they're used to getting hit, they are
well conditioned and they have a good basic toolbox of a range of combative
skills. I have a training associate that has a 3rd BB in TKD on top of
coming from a Golden Gloves family- the father and about four sons. He's
competed all his life with very good skills, but some of the attacks and
defenses he hadn't seen before were very startling to him because he'd never
considered the targets or the 'entrance'.
It's just a different mind-set.

>.....However you very often see guys trained
> in exotics who lack an important essential - this lack is not exposed
> because of the absence of resisting opponents. This missing essential can
> be pain tolerance, untested jaw, low endurance, or improper reflexes. You
> may be fast as greased lightning and have fists of stone, but if you can't
> survive one punch to the head you're nothing, really.

Oh yeah; sure.
But, the practice is very much divorced from the art. It is always the
exponent who is challenged- bad boxers lose to excellent TKD'ers all the
time (as it were).
If one stipulates that we're talking about equally prepared fighters- simply
judged by the 'content' of their art, the more tools prepared, the better.

> I think we're still stuck in the stage where we're trying to pit exotics
> against strong base art, or against guys with natural ability or strong
> attributes.

Sure, that's what they're for.
My art trains for 'attack from ambush by an unknown enemy at a time of his
choosing armed with weapons of any description'. In it's most academic
sense, the 'combative knowledge' held by the art is very vast. It speaks to
a wide range of scenarios and skills.
Your art may very well train for a formal context within a range of rules.
The arts are similar in that they may well share some techniques and
applications.
That doesn't necessarily put them in effective competition at all.

> Note also when you put guys just trained in exotics in a ring they are
> often degraded to very bad boxing moves, swinging and flailing, then
> typically gassing. This is because there's a temptation to substitute
> 'killer moves' for attribute acquisition.

Depends on the 'attribute' you want.
Boxing is *hard*. They sometimes fight for 15 rounds and never come to a
definitive conclusion. Their tools and available techniques are so
restricted that it takes a very refined technique to score a win.
Non-pugilistic wrestling is much the same- very difficult to get the win,
and contests go on for a long time in many instances.
Combined skills and excellent conditioning will take you a long way <g >
Add in *any* weapons skill and you have a Mixed Martial Art suitable for
anywhere.
After that it's just a matter of access and preferrence.

> The base arts are those that allow training with a fully resisting
> opponent. Generally, stronger base art beats exotics.

Nah; Willem de Thouars trained Rocky Marciano, and Bruce Lee in the
variations on boxing based out of 'pukulan' and 'kuntao chuan' and his
training in London Boxing of the 40's or so. There are some undeniable
benefits from the 'exotics' even under Boxing Rules.

> A base with ability
> in more ranges of combat beats base arts with ability in a single range.

Sure- you've got to be skilled at all ranges to face an unknown opponent.

> All of this is mediated by personal attribute level which is intimately
> tied up with the training method. Kano said it first in 1886 - it's not
> the
> training or secret killer moves - it's the training method.

Training methods are the most closely held secrets of most of the arts of
which I'm aware. The training methods shown in movies and such are becoming
more well-known, some arts without movie stars a bit less apparent.

Chas




25 Mar 2005 12:01:20
Chas
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

"Badger_South" <Badger@South.net > wrote
> Uh, did you even -see- the Ali - Inoki fight? Inoki spent the fight on the
> ground in the crab position, afraid to get hit by Ali.

In the exhibition fight with Lyle Alzado, Alzado had to visibly restrain
himself from some techniques. Lyle was a football player that tried to enter
wrestling and boxing to some degree. He had good skills on a heavy steroid
body. He had retired to owning a restaurant when the exhibition bout
happened, but still in very good shape.
Ali was at the end of his career, but a 'mixed approach' defeated him on a
tactical level as far as I'm concerned.
Lyle also said he'd never been hit that good in his life and was very
respectful of Ali. As he wasn't respectful of much of anything, being
'apprehensive' of Ali was a great compliment.

Chas




25 Mar 2005 20:50:30
brody
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

Kevin Lowe wrote:
> In article <iMQ0e.777705$Xk.352042@pd7tw3no>,
> brody <jbrody@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Damion wrote:
>>
>>>What if the boxer is drinking colt 45?
>>
>>what if the boxer is driving a Dodge Colt ?
>
>
> What if he's got a dodgy colt in a box?
>
> Kevin Lowe,
> Tasmania.

What if the boxer is driving a Dodge Colt, drinking Colt 45 with one
hand, holding a Colt 45 in the other hand; as long as he dosnt get his
colts mixed up, he should dominate the kung fooey guy...


25 Mar 2005 20:52:22
T
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

Chas wrote:
> "Badger_South" <Badger@South.net> wrote

> If one stipulates that we're talking about equally prepared fighters- simply
> judged by the 'content' of their art, the more tools prepared, the better.

Could be.

Two things: in mma, bjj does extremely well.

World-class heavyweight boxers make *millions* of dollars per match, so
you're just not going to see them in mma.

>>I think we're still stuck in the stage where we're trying to pit exotics
>>against strong base art, or against guys with natural ability or strong
>>attributes.

BJJ *was* an exotic; orders of magnitude more people practice judo,
wrestling, boxing....

> Sure, that's what they're for.
> My art trains for 'attack from ambush by an unknown enemy at a time of his
> choosing armed with weapons of any description'. In it's most academic
> sense, the 'combative knowledge' held by the art is very vast. It speaks to
> a wide range of scenarios and skills.

It sounds impossible; how do you deal with range weapons? Not just
you-know-what, but... thrown rocks, blowgun darts, arrows....

> Your art may very well train for a formal context within a range of rules.
> The arts are similar in that they may well share some techniques and
> applications.
> That doesn't necessarily put them in effective competition at all.

True dat. If someone shot me from ambush (stipulate an arrow or a dart
if you want) I'd just die; I have no idea how to even begin to counter that.

>>Note also when you put guys just trained in exotics in a ring they are
>>often degraded to very bad boxing moves, swinging and flailing, then
>>typically gassing. This is because there's a temptation to substitute
>>'killer moves' for attribute acquisition.
>
> Depends on the 'attribute' you want.

> Boxing is *hard*. They sometimes fight for 15 rounds and never come to a
> definitive conclusion. Their tools and available techniques are so
> restricted that it takes a very refined technique to score a win.
> Non-pugilistic wrestling is much the same- very difficult to get the win,
> and contests go on for a long time in many instances.
> Combined skills and excellent conditioning will take you a long way <g>
> Add in *any* weapons skill and you have a Mixed Martial Art suitable for
> anywhere.
> After that it's just a matter of access and preferrence.
>
>>The base arts are those that allow training with a fully resisting
>>opponent. Generally, stronger base art beats exotics.
>
> Nah; Willem de Thouars trained Rocky Marciano, and Bruce Lee in the
> variations on boxing based out of 'pukulan' and 'kuntao chuan' and his
> training in London Boxing of the 40's or so. There are some undeniable
> benefits from the 'exotics' even under Boxing Rules.
>
>>A base with ability
>>in more ranges of combat beats base arts with ability in a single range.

"The ground is the ocean, I am the shark, he doesn't even know how to
swim." Position and submission specialists win in mma; the other winners
tend to be hybrids; jacks, sprawl and brawl (strikers with a sprawl),
ground and pound (wrestlers who thump you from superior position).

> Sure- you've got to be skilled at all ranges to face an unknown opponent.

Naw.

>>All of this is mediated by personal attribute level which is intimately
>>tied up with the training method. Kano said it first in 1886 - it's not
>>the
>>training or secret killer moves - it's the training method.
>
> Training methods are the most closely held secrets of most of the arts of
> which I'm aware. The training methods shown in movies and such are becoming
> more well-known, some arts without movie stars a bit less apparent.
>
> Chas

Rolling's hard. Lifting's hard. Some of that tool conditioning stuff
you were talking about sounds way too extreme, though.


25 Mar 2005 21:06:38
joe
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

boxing can be traced back to the earliest man... egyptians or whatever




"zxcv" <zxcvnosend@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1111757132.385970.195000@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> joe wrote:
>> boxing is the oldest
>> martial art
>
> Older than wrestling? I doubt it. I also doubt that is older than
> rock-fu.
>




25 Mar 2005 21:17:12
T
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

joe wrote:

> boxing can be traced back to the earliest man... egyptians or whatever

Wow, five thousand whole years, and humans have only been around for a
couple million....

One question to ask is: how do other primates fight?

>>>boxing is the oldest martial art
>>
>>Older than wrestling? I doubt it. I also doubt that is older than
>>rock-fu.


25 Mar 2005 15:36:56
Chas
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

"T" <T@nothingbut.net > wrote
> It sounds impossible; how do you deal with range weapons? Not just
> you-know-what, but... thrown rocks, blowgun darts, arrows....

Traditionally, by wearing armor, carrying shields and the practice of Langka
Securum- 360 Degrees of Total Awareness.

> True dat. If someone shot me from ambush (stipulate an arrow or a dart if
> you want) I'd just die; I have no idea how to even begin to counter that.

One of the more salient advantages of range weapons.
By and large, your martial art doesn't start to cut in until you're aware of
the threat. If the threat is 'poison blow-dart', the options are pretty
slim, all in all.

> Rolling's hard. Lifting's hard. Some of that tool conditioning stuff you
> were talking about sounds way too extreme, though.

Oh MAN- I've seen my teachers do some really dangerous and painful stuff as
part of conditioning- I just don't have that commitment.

Chas




25 Mar 2005 23:21:22
George Kerby
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the




On 3/25/05 3:17 PM, in article sd%0e.19190$ot.6558@tornado.texas.rr.com, "T"
<T@nothingbut.net > wrote:

> joe wrote:
>
>> boxing can be traced back to the earliest man... egyptians or whatever
>
> Wow, five thousand whole years, and humans have only been around for a
> couple million....
>
> One question to ask is: how do other primates fight?
>
Throwing their shit at each other? Just like you crossposting morons are
doing here in rec.photo! Git out now, ya hear...
>>>> boxing is the oldest martial art
>>>
>>> Older than wrestling? I doubt it. I also doubt that is older than
>>> rock-fu.


_______________________________________________________________________________
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26 Mar 2005 01:11:57
Vamp
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week


"brody" <jbrody@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:qQ_0e.788505$6l.176444@pd7tw2no...
> Kevin Lowe wrote:
>> In article <iMQ0e.777705$Xk.352042@pd7tw3no>,
>> brody <jbrody@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Damion wrote:
>>>
>>>>What if the boxer is drinking colt 45?
>>>
>>>what if the boxer is driving a Dodge Colt ?
>>
>>
>> What if he's got a dodgy colt in a box?
>>
>> Kevin Lowe,
>> Tasmania.
>
> What if the boxer is driving a Dodge Colt, drinking Colt 45 with one hand,
> holding a Colt 45 in the other hand; as long as he dosnt get his colts
> mixed up, he should dominate the kung fooey guy...

LMAO




25 Mar 2005 21:12:57
YoJimbo
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the

In article <BE69F90F.15276%ghost_topper@hotmail.com >, ghost_topper@hotmail.com says...
>
>
>
>
>On 3/25/05 3:17 PM, in article sd%0e.19190$ot.6558@tornado.texas.rr.com, "T"
><T@nothingbut.net> wrote:
>
>> joe wrote:
>>
>>> boxing can be traced back to the earliest man... egyptians or whatever
>>
>> Wow, five thousand whole years, and humans have only been around for a
>> couple million....
>>
>> One question to ask is: how do other primates fight?
>>
>Throwing their shit at each other? Just like you crossposting morons are
>doing here in rec.photo! Git out now, ya hear...

Waitaminute.
You heroes are a little suspect in the manly department, if you
know what I mean. Did you ever see a real man entering discussions like,
"can we see your JPEGS on that butterfly's wing pattern?"

Hell nooooo
You guys need to hear this stuff more than anybody.






26 Mar 2005 13:44:07
Fraser Johnston
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week


"Robert Low" <N0mtx014@SPAMcoventry.ac.uk > wrote in message
news:3aiuqtF69egi4U3@individual.net...

> Oddly enough, the equivalent *is* illegal in Olympic TKD. If you
> fake a punch to the head as a distractor, you won't be scored
> on any technique you land as a consequence. (Of course, if
> you manage to bend the other guy's ribcage enough, you won't
> mind that it didn't score :-))
>
> I should think that it wouldn't take long for the equivalent
> rule to appear in Western Boxing, if people started faking
> illegal techniques to get an opening.

Yet another nail in TKDs coffin. In BJJ we fake all the time. I faked a
choke to get an armbar last time I was there.

Fraser




26 Mar 2005 19:50:28
Robert Low
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

Fraser Johnston wrote:
> "Robert Low" <N0mtx014@SPAMcoventry.ac.uk> wrote in message
>>Oddly enough, the equivalent *is* illegal in Olympic TKD. If you
>>fake a punch to the head as a distractor, you won't be scored
>>on any technique you land as a consequence. (Of course, if
>>you manage to bend the other guy's ribcage enough, you won't
>>mind that it didn't score :-))
>>
>>I should think that it wouldn't take long for the equivalent
>>rule to appear in Western Boxing, if people started faking
>>illegal techniques to get an opening.
> Yet another nail in TKDs coffin. In BJJ we fake all the time. I faked a
> choke to get an armbar last time I was there.

I didn't say you couldn't fake an attack to make an opening:
I said it was a foul to fake an attack which would itself
be a foul. (Also, it only applies in Olympic rules, which
is one aspect of TKD sparring: how important an aspect
varies hugely from club to club.)

Are you allowed to fake an attack to the eyes, or a
blow to the groin, to make an opening in BJJ?

--
Rob


26 Mar 2005 13:10:15
Chas
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

"Robert Low" <N0mtx014@SPAMcoventry.ac.uk > wrote
> Are you allowed to fake an attack to the eyes, or a
> blow to the groin, to make an opening in BJJ?

One of Royce's best tricks were the little dabby kicks/stomps and clutches
to the fingers of the opponents. It made them react and allowed him to get
his distance/timing for the take-down.
'Eyes' or 'groin' feints wouldn't be much different- except for your own
vulnerability while doing them.

Chas




26 Mar 2005 14:20:04
John Smith
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week


"Robert Low" <N0mtx014@SPAMcoventry.ac.uk > wrote in message
news:3alsncF6a73n9U1@individual.net...
> Fraser Johnston wrote:
>> "Robert Low" <N0mtx014@SPAMcoventry.ac.uk> wrote in message
>>>Oddly enough, the equivalent *is* illegal in Olympic TKD. If you
>>>fake a punch to the head as a distractor, you won't be scored
>>>on any technique you land as a consequence. (Of course, if
>>>you manage to bend the other guy's ribcage enough, you won't
>>>mind that it didn't score :-))
>>>
>>>I should think that it wouldn't take long for the equivalent
>>>rule to appear in Western Boxing, if people started faking
>>>illegal techniques to get an opening.
>> Yet another nail in TKDs coffin. In BJJ we fake all the time. I faked a
>> choke to get an armbar last time I was there.
>
> I didn't say you couldn't fake an attack to make an opening:
> I said it was a foul to fake an attack which would itself
> be a foul. (Also, it only applies in Olympic rules, which
> is one aspect of TKD sparring: how important an aspect
> varies hugely from club to club.)

Are punches not allowed in Olympic TKD? That seems to
be a strange rule for a striking art ...

-JS




26 Mar 2005 14:28:27
Conkie
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

John Smith wrote:

>
> Are punches not allowed in Olympic TKD? That seems to
> be a strange rule for a striking art ...

Punches to the head are illegal in all forms of TKD (sparring and/or
competition).

Ridiculous if you ask me.

Conkie


26 Mar 2005 20:39:54
'Vejita' S. Cousin
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

In article <3alsncF6a73n9U1@individual.net >,
>>>Oddly enough, the equivalent *is* illegal in Olympic TKD. If you
>>>fake a punch to the head as a distractor, you won't be scored
>>>on any technique you land as a consequence. (Of course, if
>>>you manage to bend the other guy's ribcage enough, you won't
>>>mind that it didn't score :-))
>>>
>>>I should think that it wouldn't take long for the equivalent
>>>rule to appear in Western Boxing, if people started faking
>>>illegal techniques to get an opening.
>> Yet another nail in TKDs coffin. In BJJ we fake all the time. I faked a
>> choke to get an armbar last time I was there.
>
>I didn't say you couldn't fake an attack to make an opening:
>I said it was a foul to fake an attack which would itself
>be a foul. (Also, it only applies in Olympic rules, which
>is one aspect of TKD sparring: how important an aspect
>varies hugely from club to club.)
>
>Are you allowed to fake an attack to the eyes, or a
>blow to the groin, to make an opening in BJJ?

Yes! The rules for BJJ are fairly lose and written in the negative.
You can pretty much do anything expect that which is illegal. So you can
fake an illegal move all you want (we do it all the time, fake an elbow
strike in mount to get the guy to move his hands for example). You can
fake the illegal move just not actually do it, so if you slip up its a
problem.
HOWEVER, most BJJ tournaments are so poorly run that even if you do
something illegal odds are you'll just get a warning unless it was clearly
done with intent. And even then...


26 Mar 2005 21:13:04
Robert Low
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

John Smith wrote:
> Are punches not allowed in Olympic TKD? That seems to
> be a strange rule for a striking art ...

Punching is allowed, but to the chest only. I think
the intention was to avoid what happened to karate
in its kick-boxing guise, where you got the minimum
of kicks per round and some second-rate boxing.
Doesn't make for a well-rounded fighting art, for
sure: whether it ended up making the bouts more
exciting is...well, in the eye of the beholder.

--
Rob


26 Mar 2005 21:14:34
Robert Low
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

Chas wrote:
> "Robert Low" <N0mtx014@SPAMcoventry.ac.uk> wrote
>>Are you allowed to fake an attack to the eyes, or a
>>blow to the groin, to make an opening in BJJ?
> One of Royce's best tricks were the little dabby kicks/stomps and clutches
> to the fingers of the opponents. It made them react and allowed him to get
> his distance/timing for the take-down.

Good stuff in a real (or nearly real) fight, with very open
rules. I was wondering about tournament sport/grappling BJJ,
assuming that there is such a thing.

--
Rob


26 Mar 2005 21:19:08
Robert Low
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

Conkie wrote:
> Punches to the head are illegal in all forms of TKD (sparring and/or
> competition).
> Ridiculous if you ask me.

More ridiculous than it is true. Oustide Olympic sparring,
just what goes depends hugely on club (and even on the
individuals sparring). I know ITF guys who spar full
contact, head punches, low kicks and all: though the majority
of ITF in the UK practices with no contact at all. In
WTF associated clubs, the emphasis is often on Olympic
rules sparring; but not exclusively---and when practising
free sparring, head strikes, grabs, and takedowns are
often used. The degree of contact may be prescribed by
the instructor, or left to the discretion of the
people doing the sparring. Some of the guys I train
with like to bang, and do so. Others prefer not to,
and don't.

The statement you make above is like saying that leglocks
are illegal in judo both in shiai and in randori. What
is acceptable in shiai and what consenting adults do
on the mat in practice can differ quite a lot.

--
Rob


26 Mar 2005 21:21:44
Robert Low
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

'Vejita' S. Cousin wrote:
>>Are you allowed to fake an attack to the eyes, or a
>>blow to the groin, to make an opening in BJJ?
> Yes! The rules for BJJ are fairly lose and written in the negative.
> You can pretty much do anything expect that which is illegal. So you can
> fake an illegal move all you want (we do it all the time, fake an elbow
> strike in mount to get the guy to move his hands for example).

OK, that's cool. Though I'm not quite sure whether it's a good
idea. If you get used to ignoring the elbow strike because
it's illegal....

> HOWEVER, most BJJ tournaments are so poorly run that even if you do
> something illegal odds are you'll just get a warning unless it was clearly
> done with intent. And even then...

Well, it's not unknown for TKDin to lob in a couple of hard head
punches, take the penalty, and then make considerable use of
the fact that their opponent is now a tad nervous of them. I'd
be surprised if nobody else thought if it.

--
Rob


27 Mar 2005 08:16:50
Fraser Johnston
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week


"Robert Low" <N0mtx014@SPAMcoventry.ac.uk > wrote in message
news:3alsncF6a73n9U1@individual.net...
> Fraser Johnston wrote:
>> "Robert Low" <N0mtx014@SPAMcoventry.ac.uk> wrote in message
>>>Oddly enough, the equivalent *is* illegal in Olympic TKD. If you
>>>fake a punch to the head as a distractor, you won't be scored
>>>on any technique you land as a consequence. (Of course, if
>>>you manage to bend the other guy's ribcage enough, you won't
>>>mind that it didn't score :-))
>>>
>>>I should think that it wouldn't take long for the equivalent
>>>rule to appear in Western Boxing, if people started faking
>>>illegal techniques to get an opening.
>> Yet another nail in TKDs coffin. In BJJ we fake all the time. I faked a
>> choke to get an armbar last time I was there.
>
> I didn't say you couldn't fake an attack to make an opening:
> I said it was a foul to fake an attack which would itself
> be a foul. (Also, it only applies in Olympic rules, which
> is one aspect of TKD sparring: how important an aspect
> varies hugely from club to club.)
>
> Are you allowed to fake an attack to the eyes, or a
> blow to the groin, to make an opening in BJJ?

Sure.

Fraser




27 Mar 2005 01:01:22
'Vejita' S. Cousin
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

In article <3am22gF6capgtU2@individual.net >,
>>>Are you allowed to fake an attack to the eyes, or a
>>>blow to the groin, to make an opening in BJJ?
>> Yes! The rules for BJJ are fairly lose and written in the negative.
>> You can pretty much do anything expect that which is illegal. So you can
>> fake an illegal move all you want (we do it all the time, fake an elbow
>> strike in mount to get the guy to move his hands for example).
>
>OK, that's cool. Though I'm not quite sure whether it's a good
>idea. If you get used to ignoring the elbow strike because
>it's illegal....

It's a 50/50 kind of thing. One question is why do you train? Most
people train for fun. Self defense (although often talked about) just is
not an important part for most people (in any art). If you've made it
this far without getting in a fight, odds are you're safe. Most of the
guys in our club are 21+, and train only sport BJJ with (or without) the
gi.
Then some guys train and fight MMA. Totally differ mind set. Then
some guys are cops/army/LEO again different goals mind set. We use to do
a lot of stuff with the rangers at Ft. Lewis. I LOVE these guys. They
are in excellent physical shape, never tire, and then came to WIN and/or
HURT you. Not everyone thou is like that.

>> HOWEVER, most BJJ tournaments are so poorly run that even if you do
>> something illegal odds are you'll just get a warning unless it was clearly
>> done with intent. And even then...
>
>Well, it's not unknown for TKDin to lob in a couple of hard head
>punches, take the penalty, and then make considerable use of
>the fact that their opponent is now a tad nervous of them. I'd
>be surprised if nobody else thought if it.

Yeah it sucks. I also do Judo and most judo tournaments are run like
clock work. I assumed that since TKD was also an olympic sport it would
be the same but I don't really know.. Every BJJ tournament has different
rules (there is no standard) and the refs (normally instructors at the
local clubs) are clearly bias!



27 Mar 2005 01:02:37
'Vejita' S. Cousin
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

In article <3am1l1F6chn10U2@individual.net >,
Robert Low <N0mtx014@SPAMcoventry.ac.uk > wrote:
>>>Are you allowed to fake an attack to the eyes, or a
>>>blow to the groin, to make an opening in BJJ?
>> One of Royce's best tricks were the little dabby kicks/stomps and clutches
>> to the fingers of the opponents. It made them react and allowed him to get
>> his distance/timing for the take-down.
>
>Good stuff in a real (or nearly real) fight, with very open
>rules. I was wondering about tournament sport/grappling BJJ,
>assuming that there is such a thing.

The answer is still yes. Sport BJJ (with the gi, grappling only no
strikes) rules are written in the negative. You can do anything expect
that which is illegal. Faking an illegal move is fine, actually doing it
is not :)


27 Mar 2005 09:29:40
Robert Low
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

Fraser Johnston wrote:
> "Robert Low" <N0mtx014@SPAMcoventry.ac.uk> wrote in message

>>Are you allowed to fake an attack to the eyes, or a
>>blow to the groin, to make an opening in BJJ?
> Sure.

OK.

But in that case (as I suggested in my reply to Vejita)
isn't there a risk of you learning to ignore such strikes,
because you know the other guy isn't allowed to do them
for real?

--
Rob


27 Mar 2005 09:38:38
Robert Low
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

'Vejita' S. Cousin wrote:
> In article <3am22gF6capgtU2@individual.net>,
>>OK, that's cool. Though I'm not quite sure whether it's a good
>>idea. If you get used to ignoring the elbow strike because
>>it's illegal....
> It's a 50/50 kind of thing. One question is why do you train? Most
> people train for fun.


Oh, I don't have a problem with that. It's just that the
context in which this arose was that not being allowed
to fake an illegal technique was a defect of TKD. In
the sport context, I don't see any issue with it. In
the SD context, I wouldn't want to be training in a way
which encouraged me to learn to ignore something potentially
inconvenient, like an elbow across my jaw.

> Yeah it sucks. I also do Judo and most judo tournaments are run like
> clock work. I assumed that since TKD was also an olympic sport it would
> be the same but I don't really know..

Varies a lot, from what I hear. At the higher levels
the cheating is more sophisticated; at novice levels
you get people who just forget the rules in their
excitement and have to be reminded not to punch the
other guy on the nose. (But it's mostly hearsay,
since I don't compete myself: I get damaged enough
just training, never mind getting on to the mat
with somebody who's just there to win.)


> Every BJJ tournament has different
> rules (there is no standard) and the refs (normally instructors at the
> local clubs) are clearly bias!

Well, we do have clear, well-defined rules (though
they change, and people who turn up prepared to fight
by old rules can have a nasty surprise); but there's
still occasional problems of bias. And the scoring
system is sufficiently complex that there is often
dispute about who's scored what.

--
Rob



27 Mar 2005 19:13:43
Fraser Johnston
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week


"Robert Low" <N0mtx014@SPAMcoventry.ac.uk > wrote in message
news:3an96sF6bbrcmU2@individual.net...
> Fraser Johnston wrote:
>> "Robert Low" <N0mtx014@SPAMcoventry.ac.uk> wrote in message
>
>>>Are you allowed to fake an attack to the eyes, or a
>>>blow to the groin, to make an opening in BJJ?
>> Sure.
>
> OK.
>
> But in that case (as I suggested in my reply to Vejita)
> isn't there a risk of you learning to ignore such strikes,
> because you know the other guy isn't allowed to do them
> for real?

Nope. Because sometimes the fake isn't a fake. Sometimes it's a new spaz
losing their cool because you just armbarred them for the 4th time running.

Fraser




27 Mar 2005 07:04:21
Chas
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

"Robert Low" <N0mtx014@SPAMcoventry.ac.uk > wrote
> But in that case (as I suggested in my reply to Vejita)
> isn't there a risk of you learning to ignore such strikes,
> because you know the other guy isn't allowed to do them
> for real?

It goes through the entire sporting attitude.
If you ignore protecting against some things because they're 'illegal', the
sport soon becomes specialized. An example is the groin strike in boxing-
boxers wear cups, and get hit there all the time from errant blows. A
determined attack to their groin, or throat, or spine, might well succeed
against a boxer who was actually a superior fighter to you.
Boxers don't train for the backfist- I've knocked guys out with them that
were well-prepared boxers (coming over their right punch with a 'pulling the
rice bale' technique).

Chas




27 Mar 2005 17:02:00
Robert Low
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

Fraser Johnston wrote:
> Nope. Because sometimes the fake isn't a fake. Sometimes it's a new spaz
> losing their cool because you just armbarred them for the 4th time running.

In that ego-less way you guys have, right? :-)


28 Mar 2005 08:01:28
Fraser Johnston
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week


"Robert Low" <N0mtx014@SPAMcoventry.ac.uk > wrote in message
news:3ao3n1F6aqt7eU1@individual.net...
> Fraser Johnston wrote:
>> Nope. Because sometimes the fake isn't a fake. Sometimes it's a new
>> spaz losing their cool because you just armbarred them for the 4th time
>> running.
>
> In that ego-less way you guys have, right? :-)

Pretty much. Normally I'm the newbie who gets armbarred 4 times running.
; )

Fraser




28 Mar 2005 00:41:07
T
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

Chas wrote:
> "Robert Low" <N0mtx014@SPAMcoventry.ac.uk> wrote
>
>>But in that case (as I suggested in my reply to Vejita)
>>isn't there a risk of you learning to ignore such strikes,
>>because you know the other guy isn't allowed to do them
>>for real?
>
>
> It goes through the entire sporting attitude.
> If you ignore protecting against some things because they're 'illegal', the
> sport soon becomes specialized. An example is the groin strike in boxing-
> boxers wear cups, and get hit there all the time from errant blows. A
> determined attack to their groin, or throat, or spine, might well succeed
> against a boxer who was actually a superior fighter to you.
> Boxers don't train for the backfist- I've knocked guys out with them that
> were well-prepared boxers (coming over their right punch with a 'pulling the
> rice bale' technique).
>
> Chas

Since Chas brings it up, the first thing that comes to mind is sharp
stuff; I pull guard, sweep him, get knee on stomach, smile for the
camera... and get stabbed in the femoral artery with a knife I never saw
that he definitely didn't have in his hand when I swept him.

But leglocks, too, are a whole ground game in themselves that I've
barely looked at and haven't studied at all.


27 Mar 2005 19:12:17
YoJimbo
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the w

In article <d3b09536ad880ef805189c628130a758@localhost.talkaboutsportsnetwork.com >,
lawson_NO_SPAM_NO_@dayton.net says...
>
>David L. Burkhead wrote:
>> I can't believe it's not a Badger! wrote:
>> > David L. Burkhead wrote:
>> >> I don't know. Ask Gene Labell.
>> >
>> > What does inventing the telephone have to do with it?
>>
>> I'll presume that this is meant as a joke and not that you're confusing
>Gene
>> LeBell with Alexander Graham Bell. :p
>
>Serves me right for deciding not to include a smiley.
>Yeah. It's a joke.
>Peace favor your sword (IH),
>Kirk

It's a legit question anyway....how'bout Alexander Graham Bell
as a boxer?
JS








27 Mar 2005 19:25:04
YoJimbo
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

In article <DcKdnW0SP6nAINvfRVn-1w@comcast.com >, chasclementsSPOOF@comcast.net says...
>
>"Robert Low" <N0mtx014@SPAMcoventry.ac.uk> wrote
>> But in that case (as I suggested in my reply to Vejita)
>> isn't there a risk of you learning to ignore such strikes,
>> because you know the other guy isn't allowed to do them
>> for real?
>
>It goes through the entire sporting attitude.
>If you ignore protecting against some things because they're 'illegal', the
>sport soon becomes specialized. An example is the groin strike in boxing-
>boxers wear cups, and get hit there all the time from errant blows. A
>determined attack to their groin, or throat, or spine, might well succeed
>against a boxer who was actually a superior fighter to you.

Or legs.
A strong kick against a guy who's all hands is a wonderful thing.
But it better be strong. These guys are used to punishment. There's only
so much resistance the ribcage has against a strong heel, though...

>Boxers don't train for the backfist- I've knocked guys out with them that
>were well-prepared boxers (coming over their right punch with a 'pulling the
>rice bale' technique).

Generally, if it's obvious the guy knows some boxing it's not a good
policy to mess with their hands too much.

But yes, smothering and and pulling him in is one thing I'd do.
It's not like boxers don't know about backfists but they never get to
use them legally, so it's certainly a better option that trying to trade
jabs with the guy...
I used to use that one in tourneys back when I was younger.
Smother a guy's hands downward while leaping in for a backfist.
It's something I got from watching Joe Lewis, who put a lot of guys
down with this technique. Backfist isn't necessarily a "power" technique
but it's a definite candidate to either knock a guy out or break his nose.
A win/win situation.
JS

















>
>Chas
>
>



27 Mar 2005 23:37:54
Chris Tsao
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week


Chris Tsao wrote:
> Chris Tsao wrote:
>
> If there are any rare
> > moves that hardly anyone knows, I'll post them in here. Maybe my
> tapes
> > won't ever come? I sent away for them on the 7th. The eBayer only
has
> > 23 stars; maybe she doesn't plan on sending me my goods?
>
> Hmmmmmm, I got this message at 9:58 a.m.. THis is not boding well so
> far.
>
> Dear Christopher D. Tsao (rigida7147@aol.com),
>
>
> Please be advised that the following auction:
>
> 7139158301 - Superior Boxing With Don Familton (5 VHS Set)
>
>
> was ended early by eBay. The auction was ended due to the account
> suspension of the seller.
> All results for this auction are null and void.
>
>
> Regards,
> Customer Support (Trust and Safety Department)
> eBay Inc

The tapes actually came on Friday. She didn't answer my email for a
whole day, and half the stuff I ordered on eBay were by scammers who
ripped me off, so I thought she housed my money order. She's still
sending people their stuff even though her account was shut down by
eBay, believe it or not.

There are some good moves on the tapes and he mentions some things that
make good sense. Like, he says it's relatvievley safe to hold your arm
down at your hips or by your chest like Tommy Hearns when throwing a
jab, just as long as yoou bring back your fist held high. If you line
your left foot up with your oppnent's and are direclty in fron of him
and are not in a sqaure stance, it's easier to avoid his right (and his
left jab) and to slip his punches. He demonstrates how to immediately
make angles in different directions after punching. Different ways of
pivoting. He demonstrated Joe Walcott feinting, pivoting by moving his
feet to the right, stepping and firing. Without the feint, the move is
used to pivot right away.

The guy who demonstrates the kung fu-esque type of boxing moves I
mentioned earlier in this thread knew hundreds of ways. He demonstrated
umpteen ways of doing old stuff for 30-something hours; like ducking
and weaving and slipping without bending your legs. I sent his partner
a money order for three more on the last day of February, and they
haven't come yet, but if their informative and rare, I'll post them
here. Most of the best ones entail switching into a southpaw stance, so
I fast-forward through them, but maybe I should post them, unless
nobody switch hits? He demostrated how to casually move into a southpaw
stance so your opponent doesn't see it. How Willie Pepp changed stances
over and over rapidly all the while throwing punches. He died either
the day that he got my order or a day or two later, so that must be why
my new order is taking so damn long. Maybe their not as good, cos they
don't advertise them as aggressively as they do the first four? I
wonder if these people know the hell they put us through by not sending
the tapes out promptly? The doormen in my building put post-it notes on
mailboxes to let the tenants know that they have a package and the
doormen don't come on duty until late in the afternoon, so when I saw a
post-it note on my mailbox last week, I hung out by the package room in
the hopes the super or a porter coming by. Then, I went back upstairs
and came downstairs three more times and just stood there. So when the
doorman came on duty, I go to get my package and he tells me that kids
re-arrange the post-it notes as pranks and that he caught them in the
act once. That's the second time they did that to me!! The next day,
there's a new post-it note on my mailbox, but it was only for this
leather coat my aunt bought me! Sup wit' dat? Adversity snowballs,
that's what it is!




Discover Channel
Xtreme Martial Arts Thu. 03/31/05 09:00 pm 18 DSC
Biomechanical secrets; how an average fighter can become an ultimate
human weapon.


Xtreme Martial Arts
DSC Mar 31 09:00pm Add to My Calendar
Special/Other, 60 Mins.
Biomechanical secrets; how an average fighter can become an ultimate
human weapon.


Original Airdate: May 1, 2004.


_________________________________________________
Future Airings:
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Xtreme Martial Arts, DSC Apr 01 01:00am



28 Mar 2005 08:36:10
Chas
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

"T" <T@nothingbut.net > wrote
> Since Chas brings it up, the first thing that comes to mind is sharp
> stuff; I pull guard, sweep him, get knee on stomach, smile for the
> camera... and get stabbed in the femoral artery with a knife I never saw
> that he definitely didn't have in his hand when I swept him.

And if your fights happened in a 'civilian' situation, there's no way of
telling what you're facing until it happens.
Protecting your body with your bone shield makes for a different posture
than ignoring the possibility of a weapon- lots of different kinds of
weapons, and if he didn't think he had something for you, he wouldn't be
fucking with you in the first place.
The other thing is that sporting models generally agree on mitigating the
fight for a mutual benefit of being able to fight again. You don't see
*determined* groin attacks- *focussed* throat or eye attacks- you don't see
attacks to the rectum, or to the spine, or the armpit, flesh grabs and skin
attacks, focussed attacks to organs, or the hip-socket, or the AC/clavicle
area.

> But leglocks, too, are a whole ground game in themselves that I've barely
> looked at and haven't studied at all.

Harimau silat is a specialty art for locks below the navel area. There are
several good tapes out that would show you some things that would excerpt
very well for you. Guy Chase put some out- out of the Suwanda lineage, I
think. The entrances and pick-ups are going to be a little different from
what you're familiar with, but they modify nicely to a jujutsu model.
--
Chas
http://warriorschest.com/pals.htm
http://www.kuntaosilat.com/images/HMKAD.pdf
http://kuntaosilat.com/




28 Mar 2005 16:06:51
T
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

Chas wrote:
> "T" <T@nothingbut.net> wrote
>
>>Since Chas brings it up, the first thing that comes to mind is sharp
>>stuff; I pull guard, sweep him, get knee on stomach, smile for the
>>camera... and get stabbed in the femoral artery with a knife I never saw
>>that he definitely didn't have in his hand when I swept him.
>
> And if your fights happened in a 'civilian' situation, there's no way of
> telling what you're facing until it happens.
> Protecting your body with your bone shield makes for a different posture
> than ignoring the possibility of a weapon- lots of different kinds of
> weapons, and if he didn't think he had something for you, he wouldn't be
> fucking with you in the first place.

True. Though guys tend to assume that they can take women.

> The other thing is that sporting models generally agree on mitigating the
> fight for a mutual benefit of being able to fight again. You don't see
> *determined* groin attacks- *focussed* throat or eye attacks- you don't see
> attacks to the rectum, or to the spine, or the armpit, flesh grabs and skin
> attacks, focussed attacks to organs, or the hip-socket, or the AC/clavicle
> area.

I see throat, hip, spine and shoulder attacks; bjj, you know? Chokes,
hip bars, omoplata, americana, kimura....
>
>>But leglocks, too, are a whole ground game in themselves that I've barely
>>looked at and haven't studied at all.
>
> Harimau silat is a specialty art for locks below the navel area. There are
> several good tapes out that would show you some things that would excerpt
> very well for you. Guy Chase put some out- out of the Suwanda lineage, I
> think. The entrances and pick-ups are going to be a little different from
> what you're familiar with, but they modify nicely to a jujutsu model.

Sounds interesting; the idea of pulling technique from silat into the Game.


28 Mar 2005 11:17:13
Rabid_Weasel
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the w


T wrote:

> Though guys tend to assume that they can take women.

And this is an unreasonable assumption, unfounded and with no general
support from imperical evidence, anecdotal evidence, or social programming
of women?

;-)

Peace favor your sword (IH),
Kirk



28 Mar 2005 16:24:35
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the w

On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 19:12:17 -0600, Nice.Guy@Pushed.too.far.com
(YoJimbo) wrote:
>It's a legit question anyway....how'bout Alexander Graham Bell
>as a boxer?
>JS

He'd be a dead ringer.




28 Mar 2005 21:52:29
T
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the w

Rabid_Weasel wrote:
> T wrote:
>
>
>> Though guys tend to assume that they can take women.
>
>
> And this is an unreasonable assumption, unfounded and with no general
> support from imperical evidence, anecdotal evidence, or social programming
> of women?

Nope; exceptions exist.


28 Mar 2005 15:17:38
Chas
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the w

"T" <T@nothingbut.net > wrote
>> And this is an unreasonable assumption, unfounded and with no general
>> support from imperical evidence, anecdotal evidence, or social
>> programming
>> of women?
> Nope; exceptions exist.

Well; yeah.
That's why they're called 'exceptions'.

Chas




29 Mar 2005 00:25:08
Chris Tsao
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week


If you line
> your left foot up with your oppnent's and are direclty in fron of him
> and are not in a sqaure stance, it's easier to avoid his right (and
his
> left jab) and to slip his punches.

Actually, I remembered wrong. A boxer can stand square if he lines his
left foot up with his opponent's left foot. He demonstrated the move
showing his son only his side. But he says you can be square. He didn't
describe it so well. He should've said you should line yourself up with
your opponent so you're both in a straight line. I replicated the
positioning with my G.I. Joe taking the square stance and him with his
feet parallel and I got off lots of rights, but his right couldn't
reach me because his arm is too far back. I learned from a martial arts
teacher that a square stance is better for kicking too.



29 Mar 2005 13:53:30
PT
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week


Chris Tsao wrote:
> ....
> I replicated the positioning with my G.I. Joe taking
> the square stance and him with his feet parallel and
> I got off lots of rights, but his right couldn't
> reach me because his arm is too far back.

It's well known that you have to pulp your G.I. Joe,
before you can play Madison Square Garden.

> I learned from a martial arts
> teacher that a square stance is better for kicking too.

Dubious. I can't think of a single kick that's stronger
from a square stance, against an opponent to the front.

---
Paul T.



29 Mar 2005 16:46:51
Chris Tsao
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week


PT wrote:

> It's well known that you have to pulp your G.I. Joe,
> before you can play Madison Square Garden.

They prefer to remain anonymous 'cause their ninjas.

> Dubious. I can't think of a single kick that's stronger
> from a square stance, against an opponent to the front.


I meant that the right leg is closer to the target and it's harder for
your opponent to tell you're gonna kick with your right foot if you're
a sqaure stance and the left leg could be in the way sometimes.



30 Mar 2005 14:03:01
Lahav
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

A good boxer can in fact defeat a martial art student.....or not.
It depends. A martial arts expert can cause serious damage.He controls
his body and his spirit and he can study his opponent better. Boxing
uses more strenght..martial arts can combine
speed,agility,stenght,mental power and can use other parts of the
body that can knock out very quickly any oponent.
There are no perfect arts and no one is invencible.


02 Apr 2005 07:17:45
Vince
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week


Fraser Johnston wrote:

> Only if they practice in alive manner or they will freak the first
time they
> get hit.

Yes dear. Jesus, do you think you're the only person to note that an
active, aggressive opponent is useful? Hubris anyone?


> I looked at the instructor who was watching to see
> if he'd stop us and he said "Don't worry about it keeping going."
After the
> class he mentioned how this is the only martial art he had seen where

> someone would take a hit like that and keep going.

What the hell were you doing looking at your instructor? It's not the
martial art that "keeps going", it's you.

If that's the "only one" he's seen to keep going, y'all need to get out
more.

The point of this post is
> that I have been hit in the head too much and I'm prone to rambling.
>

True enough.

Vince



03 Apr 2005 14:03:17
Fraser Johnston
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week


"Vince" <slugluv@rocketmail.com > wrote in message
> > I looked at the instructor who was watching to see
>> if he'd stop us and he said "Don't worry about it keeping going."
> After the
>> class he mentioned how this is the only martial art he had seen where
>> someone would take a hit like that and keep going.
>
> What the hell were you doing looking at your instructor? It's not the
> martial art that "keeps going", it's you.

I was wondering if he was going to stop it. After the hit we both paused
and looked up to the instructor who was watching.


> If that's the "only one" he's seen to keep going, y'all need to get out
> more.
>
> The point of this post is
>> that I have been hit in the head too much and I'm prone to rambling.
>>
>
> True enough.

Tell me about it. It was like the time I went to Shelbyville with an onion
on my belt, as was the fashion of the time. But not a white onion, you
couldn't get them because of the war...........

Fraser





05 Apr 2005 21:55:00
PT
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

Badger_South wrote:
> ....
> it's not illegal to 'fake' a kick. Convincingly raise your knee
> and the opponent sweeps his hand down opening up his chin
> for a cross? Might work once. Definitely would be amusing to see.

Once? It was a workhorse for me.

>From a normal right hand stance, rear leg up, knee high, fake
front kick, straight into face level right hand stepping punch.
It does depend of course on the opponent to bite on the fake,
dropping his hands - and his attention! Also keep the left hand
raised and extended, as further distraction and to protect yourself.

>From experience, I know it's a high percentage move, even
repeatedly against the same opponent (if not overused).

I'll go out on a limb and say it would also work in The Street(tm) -
simple, with the chance of a quick KO - unless the guy is too
dorky to respond to the knee raise -

---
Paul T.



05 Apr 2005 22:20:29
PT
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

YoJimbo wrote:
> ...
> But yes, smothering and and pulling him in is one thing I'd do.
> I used to use that one in tourneys back when I was younger.
> Smother a guy's hands downward while leaping in for a backfist.
> It's something I got from watching Joe Lewis, who put a lot of
> guys down with this technique. Backfist isn't necessarily a
> "power" technique but it's a definite candidate to either knock
> a guy out or break his nose.

The move you describe can succeed, but it bothers me because
you can't get your body into a backfist to the front, it's a mutant
technique.

The backfist is most natural to the side (where the opponent
seldom is). Start with the right hand at your left side, then whip
the hips, shoulders, then arm sequentially. It's nunchaku physics -
imagine the elbow joint as the 'rope'. That really does get the
torso into the blow, which hardly anyone knows how to do on a
backfist, they just snap the arm.

I practice this regularly on a bag, and no question it packs a
wallop. A shot to the chest will stop a man's heart, to the
philtrum will produce some serious dental bills.

The trick is to position the villain - maybe I should take up
poker, then flash my hand to the player on my right -
"What you lookin' at, pal?" POW!

---
Paul T.



05 Apr 2005 22:47:57
PT
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

YoJimbo wrote:
> ....
> I used to use that one in tourneys back when I was younger.
> Smother a guy's hands downward while leaping in for a backfist.
> It's something I got from watching Joe Lewis, who put a lot of guys
> down with this technique.

I did something similar, which I picked up from a book on foot
sweeps by Hayward Nishioka. A judo book, as you'd expect, but
included a chapter "foot sweeps for karate", with some good ideas.

One was a back fist into o-uchi-gari combo. I performed it per
his instructions: switch to southpaw, slide or cross step forward
with a right hand backfist, as you step beween his legs and hook
his front ankle with your right foot. It worked OK, and even when
it didn't, the opponent would end up staggering backwards,
setting up a followup left hand lunge punch or kick.

It's also interesting from an aikido viewpoint. The backfist rarely
lands (too easily blocked), but it "takes his mind", and creates the
kuzushi for the sweep. This is similar in spirit, and technique, to
much of the aikido syllabus, except in lieu of a foot sweep, there
would be a throw, e.g. ikkyo, as uke's hands come up.

---
Paul T.



08 Apr 2005 08:26:54
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week


Lionel wrote:
> All it takes is one quick combination and the guy goes down. Screw
all
> this kung fu crap.

Stand ready and relaxed. Just as the boxer reaches punching range, he
will be stepping onto one foot or the other. As he puts his weight on
it, side kick the knee. And when I say side kick, I don't mean a wussy
snap. I mean full bottom of the foot, at right angle to the knee, full
body weight behind it, stomp the knee back thru its locking position
and back down to the ground. The boxer's head will likely slam into the
ground pretty hard. But boxers are tough, and he may not faint from the
pain or concussion, so as you put your stamping foot on the ground
follow with a stomp onto his lower ribs with the other foot, full body
weight.

They punch well, though.

Kermit

Alternatively, I could put on a pair of gloves, agree to boxing rules,
and get my head punched in :)



08 Apr 2005 11:53:42
Badger_South
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

On 8 Apr 2005 08:26:54 -0700, unrestrained_hand@hotmail.com wrote:

>
>Lionel wrote:
>> All it takes is one quick combination and the guy goes down. Screw
>all
>> this kung fu crap.
>
>Stand ready and relaxed. Just as the boxer reaches punching range, he
>will be stepping onto one foot or the other. As he puts his weight on
>it, side kick the knee. And when I say side kick, I don't mean a wussy
>snap. I mean full bottom of the foot, at right angle to the knee, full
>body weight behind it, stomp the knee back thru its locking position
>and back down to the ground. The boxer's head will likely slam into the
>ground pretty hard. But boxers are tough, and he may not faint from the
>pain or concussion, so as you put your stamping foot on the ground
>follow with a stomp onto his lower ribs with the other foot, full body
>weight.

Dude, yer dreamin'. You ain't gettin a right angle to the knee side kick
from where you're standing anyway.

-B

>They punch well, though.
>
>Kermit
>
>Alternatively, I could put on a pair of gloves, agree to boxing rules,
>and get my head punched in :)



08 Apr 2005 10:17:34
Chris Tsao
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week


Chris Tsao wrote:
> PT wrote:
>
> > It's well known that you have to pulp your G.I. Joe,
> > before you can play Madison Square Garden.
>
> They prefer to remain anonymous 'cause their ninjas.
>
> > Dubious. I can't think of a single kick that's stronger
> > from a square stance, against an opponent to the front.
>
>
> I meant that the right leg is closer to the target and it's harder
for
> your opponent to tell you're gonna kick with your right foot if
you're
> a sqaure stance and the left leg could be in the way sometimes.

I was gonna write that it's harder to keep your balance when you're
kicking if your stance is so slanted that one foot is directly behind
the other, but I thought it might be just my imagination, but I heard
on a boxing instruction tape the other day that a slanted stance
hinders your balance.



08 Apr 2005 12:20:04
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week


Badger_South wrote:
> On 8 Apr 2005 08:26:54 -0700, unrestrained_hand@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> >
> >Lionel wrote:
> >> All it takes is one quick combination and the guy goes down. Screw
> >all
> >> this kung fu crap.
> >
> >Stand ready and relaxed. Just as the boxer reaches punching range,
he
> >will be stepping onto one foot or the other. As he puts his weight
on
> >it, side kick the knee. And when I say side kick, I don't mean a
wussy
> >snap. I mean full bottom of the foot, at right angle to the knee,
full
> >body weight behind it, stomp the knee back thru its locking position
> >and back down to the ground. The boxer's head will likely slam into
the
> >ground pretty hard. But boxers are tough, and he may not faint from
the
> >pain or concussion, so as you put your stamping foot on the ground
> >follow with a stomp onto his lower ribs with the other foot, full
body
> >weight.
>
> Dude, yer dreamin'. You ain't gettin a right angle to the knee side
kick
> from where you're standing anyway.
>
> -B

Hmmm. Perhaps I described it poorly. Stand more or less like a boxe,
hands up. Maybe let him think you're going to play to his strengths. As
he commits his weight to that front leg of his, send your front foot
straight to his knee. By "right angle" I mean the kicking foot is
moving straight into the knee, perhaps just below the knee cap. It is
not vertical (toes up) but horizontal (if your kicking leg is your left
foot, toes point to right). This minimizes the chances of a foot which
is vertical - like his leg - slipping off.

We used it often in San Soo as a stopping kick. Guy comes in range,
snap kick just below the knee, scrape-slide the edge of the foot down
to an instep stomp. He will drop his hands for a fraction of a second
(both body inertia and pain). That's when you throw the jab to his nose
or finger jab to his eyes. He blinks and jerks his head back, and you
throw a power punch or kick to his lower body, or grab his arm and
throw, etc. We always play by ear, of course, after the first move
anyway. But a snap and stomp, or a stomp thru the knee, are both pretty
easy on a guy focused on his hands. If *he's low kicker, or knows how
to deal with them, it can be a very interesting first three seconds...

>
> >They punch well, though.
> >
> >Kermit
> >
> >Alternatively, I could put on a pair of gloves, agree to boxing
rules,
> >and get my head punched in :)

Kermit



08 Apr 2005 20:28:05
Robert Low
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

Badger_South wrote:
> Dude, yer dreamin'. You ain't gettin a right angle to the knee side kick
> from where you're standing anyway.

Heh. I remember accidentally side-kicking somebody in the knee
while sparring a while back. He was admonishing me for
such a dangerous form of contact, and I was hopping about
muttering under my breath about how much harder than my
foot his knee was.

Next time, it's hob-nailed boots on first...

--
Rob


08 Apr 2005 20:24:10
Jeremy Graham
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

unrestrained_hand@hotmail.com wrote:

> Badger_South wrote:
>
>>On 8 Apr 2005 08:26:54 -0700, unrestrained_hand@hotmail.com wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Lionel wrote:
>>>
>>>>All it takes is one quick combination and the guy goes down. Screw
>>>
>>>all
>>>
>>>>this kung fu crap.
>>>
>>>Stand ready and relaxed. Just as the boxer reaches punching range,
>
> he
>
>>>will be stepping onto one foot or the other. As he puts his weight
>
> on
>
>>>it, side kick the knee. And when I say side kick, I don't mean a
>
> wussy
>
>>>snap. I mean full bottom of the foot, at right angle to the knee,
>
> full
>
>>>body weight behind it, stomp the knee back thru its locking position
>>>and back down to the ground. The boxer's head will likely slam into
>
> the
>
>>>ground pretty hard. But boxers are tough, and he may not faint from
>
> the
>
>>>pain or concussion, so as you put your stamping foot on the ground
>>>follow with a stomp onto his lower ribs with the other foot, full
>
> body
>
>>>weight.
>>
>>Dude, yer dreamin'. You ain't gettin a right angle to the knee side
>
> kick
>
>>from where you're standing anyway.
>>
>>-B
>
>
> Hmmm. Perhaps I described it poorly. Stand more or less like a boxe,
> hands up. Maybe let him think you're going to play to his strengths. As
> he commits his weight to that front leg of his, send your front foot
> straight to his knee. By "right angle" I mean the kicking foot is
> moving straight into the knee, perhaps just below the knee cap. It is
> not vertical (toes up) but horizontal (if your kicking leg is your left
> foot, toes point to right). This minimizes the chances of a foot which
> is vertical - like his leg - slipping off.
>
> We used it often in San Soo as a stopping kick. Guy comes in range,
> snap kick just below the knee, scrape-slide the edge of the foot down
> to an instep stomp. He will drop his hands for a fraction of a second
> (both body inertia and pain). That's when you throw the jab to his nose
> or finger jab to his eyes. He blinks and jerks his head back, and you
> throw a power punch or kick to his lower body, or grab his arm and
> throw, etc. We always play by ear, of course, after the first move
> anyway. But a snap and stomp, or a stomp thru the knee, are both pretty
> easy on a guy focused on his hands. If *he's low kicker, or knows how
> to deal with them, it can be a very interesting first three seconds...

Ummm. What you described in your previous post and in this post are
completely different things. Your 'stop kick' is not going to 'stomp the
knee back thru its locking position and back down to the ground'. If you
meant a stop kick, well I expect that you might surprise him, but he is
still going to be able to land a lead-hand jab over it. And he is *not*
likely to be put off-base by a jab or fingers to the eye. He will
probably slip it, or just duck his head and counter punch.

Whatever. I expect you're just trying to illustrate some possible
responses. In any case it's possible to play "what-if" to an absurd end.
But I think you might be underestimating boxers. Ever get a chance to
try this approach (on a friendly basis of course) with one?

JG


08 Apr 2005 17:21:04
Badger_South
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 20:28:05 +0100, Robert Low <mtx014@coventry.ac.uk >
wrote:

>Badger_South wrote:
>> Dude, yer dreamin'. You ain't gettin a right angle to the knee side kick
>> from where you're standing anyway.
>
>Heh. I remember accidentally side-kicking somebody in the knee
>while sparring a while back. He was admonishing me for
>such a dangerous form of contact, and I was hopping about
>muttering under my breath about how much harder than my
>foot his knee was.
>
>Next time, it's hob-nailed boots on first...

The Silat guys can do this kind of knee attack thing, but it requires a
systematic setup - which they do quite reflexivelly - as the first part of
their reply in many cases. It takes a little while to get that footwork
down, but it's worth knowing, imo.

Still if the guy isn't giving them the energy to do it, they have to
survive a little longer and get an opening - that can be difficult if you
are moving around with a skilled fighter. But in a self-defense sitch, that
stuff they do is nasty, I think.

And where they are showng a scoop sweep motion on you in demos, they are
easily in position if you are caught flatfooted to do all sorts of damage.
Seeing Willem on the DVD do that stuff illustrates that if he caught
someone "napping" in a confrontation he could damage them severely in a
split-second, even at age 70. Good thing he's a nice guy. I can't imagine
an 'evil twin' Uncle Bill. That would be scary, homey. ;-)

jj



08 Apr 2005 15:38:00
Chas
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

"Jeremy Graham" <sodeguruma@yahoo.ca > wrote
> But I think you might be underestimating boxers. Ever get a chance to try
> this approach (on a friendly basis of course) with one?

Yup; lots- maybe more than any other representative art.
The biggest mistake you can make is to go in and start trying to look like
Ali- better to go in like you train and just take targets where you find
them.
They always think you're going to put your hands up like they do; dance
around like they do; ignore the same targets they have to-
pshaw.

Chas




08 Apr 2005 16:48:10
Conkie
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

Jeremy Graham wrote:

> Whatever. I expect you're just trying to illustrate some possible
> responses. In any case it's possible to play "what-if" to an absurd end.
> But I think you might be underestimating boxers. Ever get a chance to
> try this approach (on a friendly basis of course) with one?
> JG

IMHO, a lot of "martial artists" nowadays focus a little too much on
"would this work on a boxer or MMA fighter" etc.

It's not a realistic (or even a healthy) benchmark to impose on yourself.

In reality - what are the chances you'll ever get in a street fight with
a pro boxer/MMA fighter ? Answer: about the same as winning the
lottery. Trained fighters generally have extreme discipline, and avoid
shitdisturbing in general. Don't be fooled by the wild acts and tirades
you see some fighters do on camera - 99.99 times out of 100, it is an
act (which is why everyone is friendly after the fight is over).

So really, there's nothing wrong with assuming the typical street
encounter will be with someone who's likely bigger/stronger than you
are, but will have only one rudimentary weapon (looping right haymaker
punch) and little else (well, maybe a side or front headlock learned in
grade school).

In my own experience, I can tell you that the average guy on the street
has NIL defence, and you can pretty much hit them at will if you're half
decent at what you do (and of course keep everything K.I.S.S simple.).

If you keep it simple and have legit stopping power, you'll be more than
fine with whatever you do. Case in point - that clip with Jay Lee VS
the Pimp.

That move wouldn't work on Mike Tyson, but it sure as hell worked on Homie.

Conkie




08 Apr 2005 23:05:20
Robert Low
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

Badger_South wrote:
> On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 20:28:05 +0100, Robert Low <mtx014@coventry.ac.uk>
>>Heh. I remember accidentally side-kicking somebody in the knee
>>while sparring a while back. He was admonishing me for
>>such a dangerous form of contact, and I was hopping about
>>muttering under my breath about how much harder than my
>>foot his knee was.
>>
>>Next time, it's hob-nailed boots on first...
>
>
> The Silat guys can do this kind of knee attack thing, but it requires a
> systematic setup

Sure: you have to get the other guy to cooperate
by manouvreing him into 'helping' you by his leg
position and configuration. That's the tricky bit
for those of us who don't practice it. But I did
learn that just smacking the knee with my foot
is not a magic trick that takes an opponent out :-)

--
Rob


08 Apr 2005 18:13:48
Badger_South
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

On Fri, 8 Apr 2005 15:38:00 -0600, "Chas" <chasclementsSPOOF@comcast.net >
wrote:

>"Jeremy Graham" <sodeguruma@yahoo.ca> wrote
>> But I think you might be underestimating boxers. Ever get a chance to try
>> this approach (on a friendly basis of course) with one?
>
>Yup; lots- maybe more than any other representative art.
>The biggest mistake you can make is to go in and start trying to look like
>Ali- better to go in like you train and just take targets where you find
>them.
>They always think you're going to put your hands up like they do; dance
>around like they do; ignore the same targets they have to-
>pshaw.
>
>Chas

Dude you are gonna love this file I'm gonna get for you. Are you using a
modem? What is the largest snippet you want to download? 15meg? (about
45min during lunch)

Got the second half of Rodney King's Crazy monkey boxing and it looks like
something you could slide right into your Silat practice. You'll recognize
his bone shield. That's right the CM boxing guy is advocating an
interesting mobile triangle boneshield for empty hands, but it's got some
unique aspects to it.

Game?

-B



08 Apr 2005 15:31:12
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week


Jeremy Graham wrote:
> unrestrained_hand@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > Badger_South wrote:
> >
> >>On 8 Apr 2005 08:26:54 -0700, unrestrained_hand@hotmail.com wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>Lionel wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>All it takes is one quick combination and the guy goes down.
Screw
> >>>
> >>>all
> >>>
> >>>>this kung fu crap.
> >>>
> >>>Stand ready and relaxed. Just as the boxer reaches punching range,
> >
> > he
> >
> >>>will be stepping onto one foot or the other. As he puts his weight
> >
> > on
> >
> >>>it, side kick the knee. And when I say side kick, I don't mean a
> >
> > wussy
> >
> >>>snap. I mean full bottom of the foot, at right angle to the knee,
> >
> > full
> >
> >>>body weight behind it, stomp the knee back thru its locking
position
> >>>and back down to the ground. The boxer's head will likely slam
into
> >
> > the
> >
> >>>ground pretty hard. But boxers are tough, and he may not faint
from
> >
> > the
> >
> >>>pain or concussion, so as you put your stamping foot on the ground
> >>>follow with a stomp onto his lower ribs with the other foot, full
> >
> > body
> >
> >>>weight.
> >>
> >>Dude, yer dreamin'. You ain't gettin a right angle to the knee side
> >
> > kick
> >
> >>from where you're standing anyway.
> >>
> >>-B
> >
> >
> > Hmmm. Perhaps I described it poorly. Stand more or less like a
boxe,
> > hands up. Maybe let him think you're going to play to his
strengths. As
> > he commits his weight to that front leg of his, send your front
foot
> > straight to his knee. By "right angle" I mean the kicking foot is
> > moving straight into the knee, perhaps just below the knee cap. It
is
> > not vertical (toes up) but horizontal (if your kicking leg is your
left
> > foot, toes point to right). This minimizes the chances of a foot
which
> > is vertical - like his leg - slipping off.
> >
> > We used it often in San Soo as a stopping kick. Guy comes in range,
> > snap kick just below the knee, scrape-slide the edge of the foot
down
> > to an instep stomp. He will drop his hands for a fraction of a
second
> > (both body inertia and pain). That's when you throw the jab to his
nose
> > or finger jab to his eyes. He blinks and jerks his head back, and
you
> > throw a power punch or kick to his lower body, or grab his arm and
> > throw, etc. We always play by ear, of course, after the first move
> > anyway. But a snap and stomp, or a stomp thru the knee, are both
pretty
> > easy on a guy focused on his hands. If *he's low kicker, or knows
how
> > to deal with them, it can be a very interesting first three
seconds...
>
> Ummm. What you described in your previous post and in this post are
> completely different things. Your 'stop kick' is not going to 'stomp
the
> knee back thru its locking position and back down to the ground'. If
you
> meant a stop kick, well I expect that you might surprise him, but he
is
> still going to be able to land a lead-hand jab over it. And he is
*not*
> likely to be put off-base by a jab or fingers to the eye. He will
> probably slip it, or just duck his head and counter punch.

That's why you apply the kick first. You won't have a lot of time. I
have seen boxers use this kind of pain response. A right hook to the
lower ribs, and the opposing boxer drops his hands momentarily. The
right hook is followed *immediately by a second right hook to the jaw.
If the opposing boxer is kind enough to offer the opening when
requested, this one-two combination can be the winning combo.

So too with the kick. If it's hard, and I don't hesitate, I may have an
opening to attack the arm or head. Why, what would you recommend? That
I, a non-boxer, try to jab the boxer to create an opening? Heh. Need I
tell you how *that would turn out?

>
> Whatever. I expect you're just trying to illustrate some possible
> responses. In any case it's possible to play "what-if" to an absurd
end.
> But I think you might be underestimating boxers. Ever get a chance
to
> try this approach (on a friendly basis of course) with one?
>
> JG

I must have taken too many punches to the head from boxers. Let me try
again. Yes, this snap and stomp is different from the stomp thru, but
the movement up to contact with the knee is the same. It can be either
a push thru, a stomp the knee past where it straightens out all the way
to the ground, or the light snap , scrape, and stomp down. Much like
like a jab and a hard pushing punch are similar in movement, but one
has more body weight behind it, and hits harder.

Of course what-if scenarios can be played out ad nauseum on the net. I
only wanted to illustrate one possible response a trained fighter might
try against a sportsman. Someone other than the poor McDojo black belts
who have been disappointed in their martial training after an
altercation in a bar.

I have not tried this on someone who has only trained as a boxer. It
would be difficult for me to test much of this stuff, except in a real
fight. Please do not accuse me of claiming to be invincible. But if my
primary training is knee breaks, nose biting, wrist and finger
dislocations, etc, how could I be tested against a bigger wrestler or
boxer if I am constrained by rules? I have average speed and strength
for an athlete, short range, and am not very flexible.

I have sparred lightly against a boxer, but since he is my current kali
teacher, and a former kenpo black belt, he is not a boxer *only. We
both respect each other's repetroire of dirty tricks.

He had us spar last month with training knives and fencing masks. One
knife per pair, the first one was given to my lady love. My wife, who
is slow and weak (compared to everyone else in our social circle)
lunged at fellow student Art, who is over 6 feet, muscular, and 15
years younger than she. He grabbed her knife arm with both of his - she
was immediately trapped. His chin na skill matched hers, and he is much
more powerful. So she dropped the knife into her other hand and
leisurely plunged it into his belly. Bwahahaha! Of course, no one will
pull that off on Art again, but still...

I do not underestimate boxers, or any strong athlete not afraid of
pain. But they underestimate little old men at their peril. *And their
wives.

Kermit



08 Apr 2005 15:43:49
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week


Conkie wrote:
> Jeremy Graham wrote:
>
> > Whatever. I expect you're just trying to illustrate some possible
> > responses. In any case it's possible to play "what-if" to an absurd
end.
> > But I think you might be underestimating boxers. Ever get a chance
to
> > try this approach (on a friendly basis of course) with one?
> > JG
>
> IMHO, a lot of "martial artists" nowadays focus a little too much on
> "would this work on a boxer or MMA fighter" etc.
>
> It's not a realistic (or even a healthy) benchmark to impose on
yourself.
>
> In reality - what are the chances you'll ever get in a street fight
with
> a pro boxer/MMA fighter ? Answer: about the same as winning the
> lottery. Trained fighters generally have extreme discipline, and
avoid
> shitdisturbing in general. Don't be fooled by the wild acts and
tirades
> you see some fighters do on camera - 99.99 times out of 100, it is an

> act (which is why everyone is friendly after the fight is over).
>
> So really, there's nothing wrong with assuming the typical street
> encounter will be with someone who's likely bigger/stronger than you
> are, but will have only one rudimentary weapon (looping right
haymaker
> punch) and little else (well, maybe a side or front headlock learned
in
> grade school).
>
> In my own experience, I can tell you that the average guy on the
street
> has NIL defence, and you can pretty much hit them at will if you're
half
> decent at what you do (and of course keep everything K.I.S.S
simple.).
>
> If you keep it simple and have legit stopping power, you'll be more
than
> fine with whatever you do. Case in point - that clip with Jay Lee VS

> the Pimp.
>
> That move wouldn't work on Mike Tyson, but it sure as hell worked on
Homie.
>
> Conkie

Heh. I'm 54 YO, 5'4" tall; pretty good shape for greybeard, but still.
When people ask how well my technique would do against Tyson, I ask
them how well they think I would do against him if I *boxed him?

If I stand more than a snowball's chance in hell against Iron Mike it's
because I *wouldn't box him.

When we compare different fighting arts or sports we have two choices:
either handicap one by making one fighter conform to the other art's
training/sparring rules, or let them fight for real. Laming or killing
someone, and going to jail, is a high price to pay to satisfy one's
curiousity.

Kermit



08 Apr 2005 21:29:17
Chas
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

"Badger_South" <Badger@South.net > wrote
> Dude you are gonna love this file I'm gonna get for you. Are you using a
> modem? What is the largest snippet you want to download? 15meg? (about
> 45min during lunch)

I'm on high-speed cable- no sweat.

> Game?

Always.

Chas




09 Apr 2005 04:28:38
Jeremy Graham
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

Conkie wrote:

> IMHO, a lot of "martial artists" nowadays focus a little too much on
> "would this work on a boxer or MMA fighter" etc.
>
> It's not a realistic (or even a healthy) benchmark to impose on yourself.

Just seems sensible to concern yourself with the greater threat. Nothing
wrong with being over-prepared. And there are lots of potential
opponents who can give you a perfectly hard time without any kind of
MMA/boxing training. Be a shame to have to face down a bruiser and think
"but I only ever prepared to fight scrubs!"

> In reality - what are the chances you'll ever get in a street fight with
> a pro boxer/MMA fighter ? Answer: about the same as winning the
> lottery. Trained fighters generally have extreme discipline, and avoid
> shitdisturbing in general. Don't be fooled by the wild acts and tirades
> you see some fighters do on camera - 99.99 times out of 100, it is an
> act (which is why everyone is friendly after the fight is over).

I don't know if it's so much discipline as having the fight beaten out
of you several times a week. ;)

> So really, there's nothing wrong with assuming the typical street
> encounter will be with someone who's likely bigger/stronger than you
> are, but will have only one rudimentary weapon (looping right haymaker
> punch) and little else (well, maybe a side or front headlock learned in
> grade school).

Or the hockey-shirt maneuver.

> In my own experience, I can tell you that the average guy on the street
> has NIL defence, and you can pretty much hit them at will if you're half
> decent at what you do (and of course keep everything K.I.S.S simple.).
>
> If you keep it simple and have legit stopping power, you'll be more than
> fine with whatever you do. Case in point - that clip with Jay Lee VS
> the Pimp.
>
> That move wouldn't work on Mike Tyson, but it sure as hell worked on Homie.

Doesn't seem like we particularly disagree. You're not particularly
likely to ever have to fight a serious competitor outside of training.
But that doesn't mean that the best tool set to prepare against one - a
small set of burned-in techniques - won't also serve you well against
the average plug.

JG


09 Apr 2005 04:36:04
Jeremy Graham
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

unrestrained_hand@hotmail.com wrote:

> Heh. I'm 54 YO, 5'4" tall; pretty good shape for greybeard, but still.
> When people ask how well my technique would do against Tyson, I ask
> them how well they think I would do against him if I *boxed him?
>
> If I stand more than a snowball's chance in hell against Iron Mike it's
> because I *wouldn't box him.
>
> When we compare different fighting arts or sports we have two choices:
> either handicap one by making one fighter conform to the other art's
> training/sparring rules, or let them fight for real. Laming or killing
> someone, and going to jail, is a high price to pay to satisfy one's
> curiousity.

That wouldn't seem to be the lesson of the early UFC's and MMA in
general. In few-rules competitions it's the guys who follow a simple set
of principles that prevail. And they're not going to hospital or jail in
proving it.

Not to say that if you're disadvantaged by age and size (or whatever)
that you shouldn't look for equalizers where you can find them. :) Just
that you shouldn't count on them as giving you an even chance.

JG


09 Apr 2005 04:53:52
Jeremy Graham
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

unrestrained_hand@hotmail.com wrote:


> That's why you apply the kick first. You won't have a lot of time. I
> have seen boxers use this kind of pain response. A right hook to the
> lower ribs, and the opposing boxer drops his hands momentarily. The
> right hook is followed *immediately by a second right hook to the jaw.
> If the opposing boxer is kind enough to offer the opening when
> requested, this one-two combination can be the winning combo.
>
> So too with the kick. If it's hard, and I don't hesitate, I may have an
> opening to attack the arm or head. Why, what would you recommend? That
> I, a non-boxer, try to jab the boxer to create an opening? Heh. Need I
> tell you how *that would turn out?

On a technical basis what seems wrong with it is the timing. In your
earlier post you seemed to suggest a full-on stomp to the knee, which I
assume means you would chamber the kick. In that same beat, you have to
spot his lead leg and his weight-shift and the intention to punch, load
up and deliver a heavy stomp. All he has to do is take a small step and
jab to mess up your delivery. Not trying to make it sound like a chess
match, and we already noted that we can mate-and-checkmate this scenario
beyond all reason, but it seems to me, using what you suggest, that your
kick would arrive *after* the punch you're trying to stop.

Maybe you're just a much faster kicker than I ever was. ;)

But listen to Badger_South on this. He has the advantage of both boxing
and serious kicking experience.

> I must have taken too many punches to the head from boxers. Let me try
> again. Yes, this snap and stomp is different from the stomp thru, but
> the movement up to contact with the knee is the same.

OK, I thought one case you meant a chambered kick and in the other more
like a soccer kick.

> It can be either
> a push thru, a stomp the knee past where it straightens out all the way
> to the ground, or the light snap , scrape, and stomp down. Much like
> like a jab and a hard pushing punch are similar in movement, but one
> has more body weight behind it, and hits harder.
>
> Of course what-if scenarios can be played out ad nauseum on the net. I
> only wanted to illustrate one possible response a trained fighter might
> try against a sportsman. Someone other than the poor McDojo black belts
> who have been disappointed in their martial training after an
> altercation in a bar.

Sure. I just didn't get the air of "I might try this" from your first
post. More like you thought it was a prescription.

> I have not tried this on someone who has only trained as a boxer. It
> would be difficult for me to test much of this stuff, except in a real
> fight. Please do not accuse me of claiming to be invincible. But if my
> primary training is knee breaks, nose biting, wrist and finger
> dislocations, etc, how could I be tested against a bigger wrestler or
> boxer if I am constrained by rules? I have average speed and strength
> for an athlete, short range, and am not very flexible.

Some here would say you could successfully do it by 'indicating' the
techs you don't feel comfortable using on a training partner. Many more
would say that if you can't test them under pressure, you can't be sure
they work at all.

> I have sparred lightly against a boxer, but since he is my current kali
> teacher, and a former kenpo black belt, he is not a boxer *only. We
> both respect each other's repetroire of dirty tricks.
>
> He had us spar last month with training knives and fencing masks. One
> knife per pair, the first one was given to my lady love. My wife, who
> is slow and weak (compared to everyone else in our social circle)
> lunged at fellow student Art, who is over 6 feet, muscular, and 15
> years younger than she. He grabbed her knife arm with both of his - she
> was immediately trapped. His chin na skill matched hers, and he is much
> more powerful. So she dropped the knife into her other hand and
> leisurely plunged it into his belly. Bwahahaha! Of course, no one will
> pull that off on Art again, but still...
>
> I do not underestimate boxers, or any strong athlete not afraid of
> pain. But they underestimate little old men at their peril. *And their
> wives.

Once you bring in weapons you level the playing field considerably. A
lucky shot has far worse consequences with a knife than it does with a kick.

Cheers,

JG


09 Apr 2005 06:05:08
'Vejita' S. Cousin
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

In article <1113000229.901001.84090@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com >,
>Heh. I'm 54 YO, 5'4" tall; pretty good shape for greybeard, but still.
>When people ask how well my technique would do against Tyson, I ask
>them how well they think I would do against him if I *boxed him?
>
>If I stand more than a snowball's chance in hell against Iron Mike it's
>because I *wouldn't box him.
>
>When we compare different fighting arts or sports we have two choices:
>either handicap one by making one fighter conform to the other art's
>training/sparring rules, or let them fight for real. Laming or killing
>someone, and going to jail, is a high price to pay to satisfy one's
>curiousity.

Well the early UFCs rules were: no biting and no eye gouges (groin
strikers were legal, but you paid a fine for using them). Brazil based
Vale Tudo matches and some of the early Japanese VT matches basically
allowed everything but biting (eye gouges were legal and used).
The VT events tended to most attract a certain type of fighter and they
were already pretty well rounded and knew what to expect. The early US
UFCs thou really were pretty much talking all comers from various styles.
Except for dim mak (which most do not believe exists) you can stop
short of killing some one (KO, choke out, beat senseless, etc) and laming
someone is fine. I mean I've dislocated two guys elbows and one ankle
(popped) in tournaments. So it's possible to do a fairly world wolrd
test.
However, I agree that if weapons are involved it becomes much more
difficult. Of course that leads directly back/catch-22 to who do you know
it works at all or what works better :)



09 Apr 2005 03:19:34
Badger_South
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

On Sat, 9 Apr 2005 04:53:52 GMT, Jeremy Graham <sodeguruma@yahoo.ca > wrote:

>But listen to Badger_South on this. He has the advantage of both boxing
>and serious kicking experience.
>
>> I must have taken too many punches to the head from boxers. Let me try
>> again. Yes, this snap and stomp is different from the stomp thru, but
>> the movement up to contact with the knee is the same.
>
>OK, I thought one case you meant a chambered kick and in the other more
>like a soccer kick.

Thanks for the comment JG, but he shouldn't listen to me...he has to go out
and -do- this move in your next sparring session. Prove it to himself.

When trying it, of course don't try to -break- the sparring partner's knee,
but you can try a 'collapse' or even a stinging kick. If you can get this
in sparring with him sparring/fighting back, even at 80% intent, that's a
start. (I don't mean 80% slower...go full/normal speed, but 80% intent.
Make sure you have timing, footwork/mobility, and energy going on.)

Too often we hypothesize, or go through a couple partner drills and seem to
see a sequence, but when tried in sparring - it's just not there for some
reason. Maybe the opponent is stalking you and you can't get set right?

In sequencing you may give yourself an extra half-step that just isn't
there in normal speed sparring.

Now you can't claim this move if you can't do it in sparring. If it's too
dangerous to 'try', then hey how do you learn it? If you kick 'past' the
knee in practice to -simulate- the kick doing the break, it may still be an
illusion and you find 3 out of 4 times you hurt your foot, not his knee -
he may be taking a slight twist of the foot which moves the knee out of
danger - who knows.

One thing we do know is that the whole 'dangerous to kick to the knee' idea
of the 1970 and 80s was pretty much shown to be:

1. over-rated;
2. not readily available to a 'chambered side kick';
3. most vulnerable (in sparring) to roundhouse and even -then- with
experience, it has to be a hard roundhouse - the opponent can resist a knee
kick when sparring.

Though many stylists like to demo that 'step / hop to the side and stomp
kick, or stop kick' with the inside up to down motion of the leg, it's
requiring extra 'tempo' that isn't really there. As you 'hop to the side',
the opponent has moved at least 3 or 4 feet too. He's not going to leave
his arm stuck out there for you to hang onto. Those are just 'demo-mode'
one steps. But get it in free sparring and it's yours to claim. Just
remember, you can't just get it with one guy, or just with your favorite
sparring partner - it's got to have some reliability.

-B



09 Apr 2005 02:14:37
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week


Robert Low wrote:
> Badger_South wrote:
> > On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 20:28:05 +0100, Robert Low
<mtx014@coventry.ac.uk >
> >>Heh. I remember accidentally side-kicking somebody in the knee
> >>while sparring a while back. He was admonishing me for
> >>such a dangerous form of contact, and I was hopping about
> >>muttering under my breath about how much harder than my
> >>foot his knee was.
> >>
> >>Next time, it's hob-nailed boots on first...
> >
> >
> > The Silat guys can do this kind of knee attack thing, but it
requires a
> > systematic setup
>
> Sure: you have to get the other guy to cooperate
> by manouvreing him into 'helping' you by his leg
> position and configuration. That's the tricky bit
> for those of us who don't practice it. But I did
> learn that just smacking the knee with my foot
> is not a magic trick that takes an opponent out :-)

Heh, that reminds me... check out an article I wrote two years ago on
"Martial Arts Myths":

http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1480503

Before you go ahead and demolish all my points, please note a couple of
things:

1) The article is meant to be read by complete martial art illiterates.
Some of the points may seem screamingly obvious, or even
oversimplified. That's deliberate.

2) I wanted it to be fairly concise and pithy. There are some
half-truths in there, because I didn't want to go into too much detail.

3) I know more about martial arts now than I did two years ago. If I
were to write this article today, it'd be different. I still stand by
everything I wrote, but it's not perfect.

Laszlo



09 Apr 2005 06:57:51
scottsummers
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

I think the trick when doing a sidekick to the knee, well first of all
lets not think about the other thai type roundhouse kicks, just think
of the sidekick. If you just do a snap kick to someones knee, thats
really not gonna do much. We would consider that a "stop kick" maybe
it would stop their momentum or maybe you would miss, who knows. On
the other hand in my system with all our sidekicks we follow through.
So you would kick the leg and then basically stand all your weight on
that leg while leaning through. If you do this right you can take
someone down with one kick by kicking their knee. Not only is this
really devestating because of the angle your leg results at, its
painful, its an added plus to take them down without extra techniques,
and immediately you can go into some kind of ankle lock or leg lock and
submit them.



09 Apr 2005 10:16:46
Badger_South
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

On 9 Apr 2005 06:57:51 -0700, "scottsummers" <scottsummers83@hotmail.com >
wrote:

>I think the trick when doing a sidekick to the knee, well first of all
>lets not think about the other thai type roundhouse kicks, just think
>of the sidekick. If you just do a snap kick to someones knee, thats
>really not gonna do much. We would consider that a "stop kick" maybe
>it would stop their momentum or maybe you would miss, who knows. On
>the other hand in my system with all our sidekicks we follow through.
>So you would kick the leg and then basically stand all your weight on
>that leg while leaning through. If you do this right you can take
>someone down with one kick by kicking their knee. Not only is this
>really devestating because of the angle your leg results at, its
>painful, its an added plus to take them down without extra techniques,
>and immediately you can go into some kind of ankle lock or leg lock and
>submit them.

Even Marco Lala would laugh.

Have you -ever- taken down someone by kicking their knee like this, or have
you -ever- seen anyone actually take someone down by performing this side
kick?

No?

Has anyone even told you a story where he beat the baddies by sidekicking
their knee and devastating them? <shaking head no >

At least the Silat guys realize that all the classical 'karate' targetting
is wrong. They go for the hip fold. In the classic rear kick to the knee
(like taking down a sentry from behind, the doctrine given is -all- wrong.
You don't kick the inside back of the knee where the leg folds, buckling
the leg - the target is about three inches below that and the guy goes down
fast.

Remember the guy whose knee you are kicking is trying to rip your head off
with punches. When you lift your leg to kick the knee he seems to be
offering, you just gave him a double leg, or an ankle pick (on the other
leg).

So anyway. Nope; sorry scott.

If you want to do things to the opponent's knee, or take him down, talk to
a Silat guy, (who if he's honest will tell you it's not gonna happen unless
you catch the guy flat-footed) Then when you think you have it, try your
move on a couple wrestlers after you give them instruction to try and take
you down and choke the crap outta you, when you say 'go' - at which point
you are going to devastate them with a sidekick to their leg.

-B



09 Apr 2005 22:26:14
Fraser Johnston
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week


"Badger_South" <Badger@South.net > wrote in message
news:p6of511lc775a9lo41kcsv62u3vpc201oe@4ax.com...

> If you want to do things to the opponent's knee, or take him down, talk to
> a Silat guy, (who if he's honest will tell you it's not gonna happen
> unless
> you catch the guy flat-footed) Then when you think you have it, try your
> move on a couple wrestlers after you give them instruction to try and take
> you down and choke the crap outta you, when you say 'go' - at which point
> you are going to devastate them with a sidekick to their leg.

Now thats just nasty. I have come to the conclusion that wrestlers are some
of the scariest people on earth.

Fraser




09 Apr 2005 08:39:55
Chas
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

"scottsummers" <scottsummers83@hotmail.com > wrote
>.....On
> the other hand in my system with all our sidekicks we follow through.
> So you would kick the leg and then basically stand all your weight on
> that leg while leaning through.

"Every step a kick; Every kick a step"
We approach kicks in the same way as punches- they only serve to hurt
someone as you cover the distance between you- the distance is the important
thing, not the damage to the opponent (kinda <g >)
It also takes a lot of the 'balance' considerations out of a kick, and
allows a 'longer and broader' application. You *intend* to 'fall' on him.

Chas




09 Apr 2005 07:43:29
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week


'Vejita' S. Cousin wrote:
> In article <1113000229.901001.84090@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
> >Heh. I'm 54 YO, 5'4" tall; pretty good shape for greybeard, but
still.
> >When people ask how well my technique would do against Tyson, I ask
> >them how well they think I would do against him if I *boxed him?
> >
> >If I stand more than a snowball's chance in hell against Iron Mike
it's
> >because I *wouldn't box him.
> >
> >When we compare different fighting arts or sports we have two
choices:
> >either handicap one by making one fighter conform to the other art's
> >training/sparring rules, or let them fight for real. Laming or
killing
> >someone, and going to jail, is a high price to pay to satisfy one's
> >curiousity.
>
> Well the early UFCs rules were: no biting and no eye gouges (groin

> strikers were legal, but you paid a fine for using them). Brazil
based
> Vale Tudo matches and some of the early Japanese VT matches basically

> allowed everything but biting (eye gouges were legal and used).
> The VT events tended to most attract a certain type of fighter and
they
> were already pretty well rounded and knew what to expect. The early
US
> UFCs thou really were pretty much talking all comers from various
styles.
> Except for dim mak (which most do not believe exists) you can stop

> short of killing some one (KO, choke out, beat senseless, etc) and
laming
> someone is fine. I mean I've dislocated two guys elbows and one
ankle
> (popped) in tournaments. So it's possible to do a fairly world wolrd

> test.
> However, I agree that if weapons are involved it becomes much
more
> difficult. Of course that leads directly back/catch-22 to who do you
know
> it works at all or what works better :)


Hmmm. Pretty much the same rules as the old Olympic pankration. I'd say
that dislocated elbows were a pretty definitive test of your combat
skill against your opponent's. Ouch. Obviously, if you had needed them
dead in other circumstances, they would be. Musashi fought most of his
later duels with the bokken, and his opponents (technically called
"losers") would often survive. Musashi didn't hold back; simply using a
bokken meant that a man's ribs would be broken instead of his guts
spilling out.

As to dim mak... in my first art, San Soo, we learned "pressure
points". These were disabling organ strikes or motor-sensory nerves;
areas like groin, solar plexus, and eyes, which are (sometimes)
immediately crippling or at least momentarily distracting. These
acupuncture-for-combat points, though, I dunno.
"You must strike at an angle, in the year of the rabbit, when the moon
is high."
"Ermmm, OK, sifu. Does it actually work?"
"It will twist your intestines into knots, and lead to a painful death.
Do you want me to try it on you?"
"I'll pass."

I don't trust information if I can't test it or see it used. And if
they don't work immediately, what good is it for self-defense (street
fighting)? If they're like Chinese herbs, the information is spotty. No
insult to the ancient Chinese, they were quite intelligent, but they
didn't have the scientific method. I've had all my motor-sensory nerves
thumped, thank you, and I know they work - understanding that
everybody's body has slightly different arrangements of nerves,
arteries, etc. Also, fellow students have reported kicking guys in the
groin only to see them double over, then immediately straighten up and
get back to fighting. Simply inducing pain isn't always enough. I
always learn my painful lessons by proxy whenever possible.

So, as a successful UFC fighter, I'm going to guess that you know
kicking, hand strikes, throws, and grappling, and how they work
together. You use palms, elbows, prefer low or medium kicks, and often
exploit temporary openings created by inducing pain. Or am I full of
it?

Sigh. And let me guess. You're going to tell me that I need to do a lot
of sparring.

Kermit



09 Apr 2005 10:52:23
Badger_South
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

On Sat, 9 Apr 2005 22:26:14 +0800, "Fraser Johnston" <fraser@jcis.com.au >
wrote:

>
>"Badger_South" <Badger@South.net> wrote in message
>news:p6of511lc775a9lo41kcsv62u3vpc201oe@4ax.com...
>
>> If you want to do things to the opponent's knee, or take him down, talk to
>> a Silat guy, (who if he's honest will tell you it's not gonna happen
>> unless
>> you catch the guy flat-footed) Then when you think you have it, try your
>> move on a couple wrestlers after you give them instruction to try and take
>> you down and choke the crap outta you, when you say 'go' - at which point
>> you are going to devastate them with a sidekick to their leg.
>
>Now thats just nasty. I have come to the conclusion that wrestlers are some
>of the scariest people on earth.
>
>Fraser

They're having a 'Rachel Walsh' marathon here today (what my father-in-law
used to call her with a West Virginnie accent "ray-chell wall-sch"), with:

100 Rifles (1969)
Bandolero (68)
Legally Blonde (01)

Even after being around since 100 million BC, she's still looking good:

http://imdb.com/gallery/ss/0250494/Ss/0250494/L-238.jpg?path=pgallery&path_key=Welch,%20Raquel

Did I mention I'm 'home alone'? The gurrlz have gone to the beach and I
have 4 glorious days here in sunny central wonderland.

Oh, the reason I mentioned it after you said 'nasty' is there's a scene in
100 Rifles where she comes running into the Mexican's captured train coach,
all covered in sweat and mud and breathing hard, and you see both of her
gleaming thighs, in a ripped dress that goes all the way up...and she's got
sprinter's legs, well developed quads and calves - no fat at all on her

...the camera is on her in long shot, and both Burt and Jim are looking her
way. She stands there doing nothing but leaning agaist the rail, breathing
hard (she's just killed a dozen bad Mexcian pistoleros in an ambush with
them).

It's clear they had lines to recite...but were having a 'moment of
silence', shall we say. ;-p

Back to the movie...

-B



09 Apr 2005 08:55:53
Chas
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

"Badger_South" <Badger@South.net > wrote
> Have you -ever- taken down someone by kicking their knee like this, or
> have
> you -ever- seen anyone actually take someone down by performing this side
> kick?

Yes; both; a number of times.

> Has anyone even told you a story where he beat the baddies by sidekicking
> their knee and devastating them? <shaking head no>

Lotsa fucked-up-his-knee stories, bud.

> At least the Silat guys realize that all the classical 'karate' targetting
> is wrong. They go for the hip fold.

Yeah; the hip-joint is a major target- as is the ankle/foot bones. Attacking
the knee is mostly to cause that first 'fold' in his skeleton

> Remember the guy whose knee you are kicking is trying to rip your head off
> with punches. When you lift your leg to kick the knee he seems to be
> offering, you just gave him a double leg, or an ankle pick (on the other
> leg).

Remember that we're coming at you with the legs in line, the hips torqued
and the shoulders squared to you. A lot of the targets presented by other
stances are not available without suffering the counter.
Admittedly we target the choke more than most, but a lot of the 'body
disruption' stuff is just to position your head for a targetted attack.

> If you want to do things to the opponent's knee, or take him down, talk to
> a Silat guy, (who if he's honest will tell you it's not gonna happen
> unless
> you catch the guy flat-footed)

We're doing it from about six inches closer to the opponent than most do. We
don't 'reach out', we step closer.

> Then when you think you have it, try your
> move on a couple wrestlers after you give them instruction to try and take
> you down and choke the crap outta you, when you say 'go' - at which point
> you are going to devastate them with a sidekick to their leg.

Why in the world would you want to use an application where it's not
appropriate?
'Knee-knock and Sapu' don't work 'twice'- they never have had to. Originally
it was used to break his posture whilst clinched up top (as with weapons).
If you're close enough to knee-knock, your heel is alredy *past* his and
your body is in contact from foot to shoulder. There's a strong head-butt
that accompanies it as well. You can't do it from a distance, so you don't
even consider it.
Silat players *are* grapplers, the 'only' reason for punching is to get
close to the enemy, break his posture and go to the ground with a lock
already in place (hopefully <g >).
The positioning on the ground can be in mount/guard or siloh- a position no
other art uses in quite the same way.

Chas




09 Apr 2005 15:02:01
T
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

Jeremy Graham wrote:
> Conkie wrote:
>
>> IMHO, a lot of "martial artists" nowadays focus a little too much on
>> "would this work on a boxer or MMA fighter" etc.
>>
>> It's not a realistic (or even a healthy) benchmark to impose on yourself.
>
>
> Just seems sensible to concern yourself with the greater threat. Nothing
> wrong with being over-prepared. And there are lots of potential
> opponents who can give you a perfectly hard time without any kind of
> MMA/boxing training. Be a shame to have to face down a bruiser and think
> "but I only ever prepared to fight scrubs!"
>
>> In reality - what are the chances you'll ever get in a street fight
>> with a pro boxer/MMA fighter ? Answer: about the same as winning the
>> lottery. Trained fighters generally have extreme discipline, and
>> avoid shitdisturbing in general. Don't be fooled by the wild acts and
>> tirades you see some fighters do on camera - 99.99 times out of 100,
>> it is an act (which is why everyone is friendly after the fight is over).
>
>
> I don't know if it's so much discipline as having the fight beaten out
> of you several times a week. ;)
>
>> So really, there's nothing wrong with assuming the typical street
>> encounter will be with someone who's likely bigger/stronger than you
>> are, but will have only one rudimentary weapon (looping right haymaker
>> punch) and little else (well, maybe a side or front headlock learned
>> in grade school).
>
>
> Or the hockey-shirt maneuver.
>
>> In my own experience, I can tell you that the average guy on the
>> street has NIL defence, and you can pretty much hit them at will if
>> you're half decent at what you do (and of course keep everything
>> K.I.S.S simple.).
>>
>> If you keep it simple and have legit stopping power, you'll be more
>> than fine with whatever you do. Case in point - that clip with Jay
>> Lee VS the Pimp.
>>
>> That move wouldn't work on Mike Tyson, but it sure as hell worked on
>> Homie.
>
>
> Doesn't seem like we particularly disagree. You're not particularly
> likely to ever have to fight a serious competitor outside of training.
> But that doesn't mean that the best tool set to prepare against one - a
> small set of burned-in techniques - won't also serve you well against
> the average plug.
>
> JG

Sure, an effective core is of paramount importance.

But it's a lot easier to poke a guy in the sternal notch than it is to
triangle him; cheap easy dirty tricks that would never work on a fighter
can be pretty useful.


09 Apr 2005 11:04:32
Badger_South
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

On 9 Apr 2005 07:43:29 -0700, unrestrained_hand@hotmail.com wrote:

>Sigh. And let me guess. You're going to tell me that I need to do a lot
>of sparring.
>
>Kermit

It would be good if you told us about your actual training and what you are
doing and experienceing now, instead of some apocryphal story about Dim Mak
you heard from someone else, or some conjecture about what MMA guys do, or
about what your SanShou instructor used to tell you.

For instance what physical training did you do yesterday evening? How about
a note about what martial things you did this morning? ;-)

-B



09 Apr 2005 15:04:40
T
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

Jeremy Graham wrote:

> unrestrained_hand@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>
>> That's why you apply the kick first. You won't have a lot of time. I
>> have seen boxers use this kind of pain response. A right hook to the
>> lower ribs, and the opposing boxer drops his hands momentarily. The
>> right hook is followed *immediately by a second right hook to the jaw.
>> If the opposing boxer is kind enough to offer the opening when
>> requested, this one-two combination can be the winning combo.
>>
>> So too with the kick. If it's hard, and I don't hesitate, I may have an
>> opening to attack the arm or head. Why, what would you recommend? That
>> I, a non-boxer, try to jab the boxer to create an opening? Heh. Need I
>> tell you how *that would turn out?
>
>
> On a technical basis what seems wrong with it is the timing. In your
> earlier post you seemed to suggest a full-on stomp to the knee, which I
> assume means you would chamber the kick. In that same beat, you have to
> spot his lead leg and his weight-shift and the intention to punch, load
> up and deliver a heavy stomp. All he has to do is take a small step and
> jab to mess up your delivery. Not trying to make it sound like a chess
> match, and we already noted that we can mate-and-checkmate this scenario
> beyond all reason, but it seems to me, using what you suggest, that your
> kick would arrive *after* the punch you're trying to stop.
>
> Maybe you're just a much faster kicker than I ever was. ;)
>
> But listen to Badger_South on this. He has the advantage of both boxing
> and serious kicking experience.
>
>> I must have taken too many punches to the head from boxers. Let me try
>> again. Yes, this snap and stomp is different from the stomp thru, but
>> the movement up to contact with the knee is the same.
>
>
> OK, I thought one case you meant a chambered kick and in the other more
> like a soccer kick.
>
>> It can be either
>> a push thru, a stomp the knee past where it straightens out all the way
>> to the ground, or the light snap , scrape, and stomp down. Much like
>> like a jab and a hard pushing punch are similar in movement, but one
>> has more body weight behind it, and hits harder.
>>
>> Of course what-if scenarios can be played out ad nauseum on the net. I
>> only wanted to illustrate one possible response a trained fighter might
>> try against a sportsman. Someone other than the poor McDojo black belts
>> who have been disappointed in their martial training after an
>> altercation in a bar.
>
>
> Sure. I just didn't get the air of "I might try this" from your first
> post. More like you thought it was a prescription.
>
>> I have not tried this on someone who has only trained as a boxer. It
>> would be difficult for me to test much of this stuff, except in a real
>> fight. Please do not accuse me of claiming to be invincible. But if my
>> primary training is knee breaks, nose biting, wrist and finger
>> dislocations, etc, how could I be tested against a bigger wrestler or
>> boxer if I am constrained by rules? I have average speed and strength
>> for an athlete, short range, and am not very flexible.
>
>
> Some here would say you could successfully do it by 'indicating' the
> techs you don't feel comfortable using on a training partner. Many more
> would say that if you can't test them under pressure, you can't be sure
> they work at all.
>
>> I have sparred lightly against a boxer, but since he is my current kali
>> teacher, and a former kenpo black belt, he is not a boxer *only. We
>> both respect each other's repetroire of dirty tricks.
>>
>> He had us spar last month with training knives and fencing masks. One
>> knife per pair, the first one was given to my lady love. My wife, who
>> is slow and weak (compared to everyone else in our social circle)
>> lunged at fellow student Art, who is over 6 feet, muscular, and 15
>> years younger than she. He grabbed her knife arm with both of his - she
>> was immediately trapped. His chin na skill matched hers, and he is much
>> more powerful. So she dropped the knife into her other hand and
>> leisurely plunged it into his belly. Bwahahaha! Of course, no one will
>> pull that off on Art again, but still...
>>
>> I do not underestimate boxers, or any strong athlete not afraid of
>> pain. But they underestimate little old men at their peril. *And their
>> wives.
>
>
> Once you bring in weapons you level the playing field considerably. A
> lucky shot has far worse consequences with a knife than it does with a
> kick.
>
> Cheers,
>
> JG

Plus with knives you don't need to *hit* people, you just have to touch
them. You don't need structure and form and attributes, just speed and
desire; even a little training goes a long way, don't really have to
think about D (unless you're dueling, which is wildly unlikely).


09 Apr 2005 09:17:10
Chas
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

<unrestrained_hand@hotmail.com > wrote
>....Musashi fought most of his
> later duels with the bokken, and his opponents (technically called
> "losers") would often survive. Musashi didn't hold back; simply using a
> bokken meant that a man's ribs would be broken instead of his guts
> spilling out.

A bokken will fuck up a sword; block it very directly and bust big hunks out
of it if not shatter it if not bend the fuck out of it.
A shaped stick acts differently from a round one. The 'sweet spot' on a
bokken will hit with far more 'damage' because of the mechanical principle
involved than would a comparable unshaped stick.
Incidentally, even the 'sharp stick' cultures shape their wooden implements
very carefully. I've got stuff from Borneo/New Guinea that is just
incredibly carefully shaped (for various purposes).

> I don't trust information if I can't test it or see it used.

Then don't say; 'I'll pass'.
I've felt it; got sick from it; seen it used on others, saw the affect from
it.
My teachers used to use us for practice dummies as they refined their
skills. One of the most common questions from them was; 'What do you
*feel*?'
Scary shit too- a number of guys got badly hurt, including me.

> And if
> they don't work immediately, what good is it for self-defense (street
> fighting)?

Paul cut my motors one time- twice in a row.
We were at a seminar with Danny Inosanto- seventy-five people saw it; both
times.
He and I had a good relationship. When he came to town, at a point I would
draw aside with him and ask for something 'for me'.
That day, he hit me and I fell to the ground in a heap- instantly. Flash of
blue light and wake up on the ground at his mercy.
It seemed a novel experience, so I asked him to do it again.
I prepared myself, gathered myself to remember it/whatever- bang; did it
again no sweat.
I've know guys that got 'hyper/hypo thyroidism' from repeated light touches-
had gangrene set in; blood poisoning- from 'accidental' hits.

> If they're like Chinese herbs, the information is spotty.

Only if you don't read Chinese.

> .......Also, fellow students have reported kicking guys in the
> groin only to see them double over, then immediately straighten up and
> get back to fighting.

Hit them twice-
You ever see the results of a guy getting pounded in the groin a number of
times?
Make ya puke just watching.

Chas




09 Apr 2005 09:22:17
Chas
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

"Badger_South" <Badger@South.net > wrote
> They're having a 'Rachel Walsh' marathon here today

She's almost as delicious as Raquel Welsh.

> Even after being around since 100 million BC, she's still looking good:

I saw her in person one time; little bitty woman, and one of the most
beautiful creatures I've ever seen in life.
I would crawled across a mile of broken glass, barb wired to a gorilla, just
to smell the exhaust from the laundry truck that took her dirty drawers
away.

really

Chas




09 Apr 2005 11:50:23
Badger_South
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

On Sat, 9 Apr 2005 08:39:55 -0600, "Chas" <chasclementsSPOOF@comcast.net >
wrote:

>"scottsummers" <scottsummers83@hotmail.com> wrote
>>.....On
>> the other hand in my system with all our sidekicks we follow through.
>> So you would kick the leg and then basically stand all your weight on
>> that leg while leaning through.
>
>"Every step a kick; Every kick a step"
>We approach kicks in the same way as punches- they only serve to hurt
>someone as you cover the distance between you- the distance is the important
>thing, not the damage to the opponent (kinda <g>)
>It also takes a lot of the 'balance' considerations out of a kick, and
>allows a 'longer and broader' application. You *intend* to 'fall' on him.
>
>Chas

Silat seems to have a 'delivery system' to their base disruptions,
sepaks/sweep-kicks, and little knee bumps, and jolts in close.

That's makes things work for silat here - having a delivery system,
incorporating timing, broken rhythm, gaining posture and then taking the
knee if it clicks, as they step through you.

Watching the vid of Uncle Bill, his positioning and anatomical lock up is
so perfect you get an imminent mental picture of the ACL in real
jeopardy.... lateral meniscus bulging - that kind of thing. ;-)

He get postion very casually, too. He just slides up and *bam*, even when
everyone's moving around.

Of course the result is that people go jumping back or falling over - he
urges the lock into a takedown not a break...one guy goes flying back part
fear, part torque. Everyone laughs. (sometimes nervously). ;-)

-B



09 Apr 2005 12:03:06
Badger_South
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

On Sat, 9 Apr 2005 08:55:53 -0600, "Chas" <chasclementsSPOOF@comcast.net >
wrote:

>Why in the world would you want to use an application where it's not
>appropriate?

Like I tell my dad when we ask 'where's your Easter Basket, honey' to our
daugher and he, sitting there points to the hiding spot, lol.

"We know -you- know the answer, Chas."

>'Knee-knock and Sapu' don't work 'twice'- they never have had to. Originally
>it was used to break his posture whilst clinched up top (as with weapons).
>If you're close enough to knee-knock, your heel is alredy *past* his and
>your body is in contact from foot to shoulder. There's a strong head-butt
>that accompanies it as well. You can't do it from a distance, so you don't
>even consider it.

Admit it you just can't wait to choke him out with your sarong as you pass.
A sudden flutter and then everything starts to turn red...then black. ;-)

>Silat players *are* grapplers, the 'only' reason for punching is to get
>close to the enemy, break his posture and go to the ground with a lock
>already in place (hopefully <g>).

You said break his posture. ;-)

>The positioning on the ground can be in mount/guard or siloh- a position no
>other art uses in quite the same way.

You said mount / guard. ;- >

>Chas

Heehee. Next you'll be talking 'delivery system'.

-B
love that siloh...
speaking of which did you get the email and on the serve?



09 Apr 2005 10:22:38
Chas
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

"Badger_South" <Badger@South.net > wrote
> Silat seems to have a 'delivery system' to their base disruptions,
> sepaks/sweep-kicks, and little knee bumps, and jolts in close.

Comes out of doing the solo form a lot.
There are three things working for you all the time; your posture, your
position and your platform.
The choreography is often 'counter-intuitive'- you have to learn how to move
that way, and you can't do it whilst moving with someone else (at first).

> That's makes things work for silat here - having a delivery system,
> incorporating timing, broken rhythm, gaining posture and then taking the
> knee if it clicks, as they step through you.

much of it comes off the 'platform'; a geometric floor pattern that bases
off of *his* foot position. They're called 'pantajars'/pantjars, and there's
a slew of them depending on what you're about.

> Watching the vid of Uncle Bill, his positioning and anatomical lock up is
> so perfect you get an imminent mental picture of the ACL in real
> jeopardy.... lateral meniscus bulging - that kind of thing. ;-)

ohfuckydoodoo- you ought to *feel* it.
And doing it against a resisting opponent is critical to the training. A lot
of application adds his resistance to the compulsion- lotta 'gravity' stuff
as well.

> He get postion very casually, too. He just slides up and *bam*, even when
> everyone's moving around.

**Incredibly sophisticated** footwork/skeletal positioning/timing. He used
to prefer showing stuff at full speed, but he wore out too many students- it
was the best ones that were getting hurt worst.
Paul's even harder- he'll take you to the screaming edge of a spinal snap;
look deep into your eyes and you can see head-onna-post looking back at you.
The difficulty isn't really learning the applications of technique, it's
learning to do them without maiming anybody. Their skill is in their control
as well as their 'delivery'- that's kinda what distinguishes between guys
who practice and guys who also lead practice.

> Of course the result is that people go jumping back or falling over - he
> urges the lock into a takedown not a break...one guy goes flying back part
> fear, part torque. Everyone laughs. (sometimes nervously). ;-)

He can be so fucking scary you wouldn't believe it- Victor maybe a little
worse in some ways. They both have 'tempers', take offense very easily and
have little or no reservation about doing it in front of the Police Station
if whimsy takes them.
I'm not a man to back up much, but I've stepped away from both of them and
taken my leave from them for years at a time. They're not from around here,
and if you're not ready to die over it, there's just not much reason to step
forward over something simple.

Chas




09 Apr 2005 10:30:52
Chas
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

"Badger_South" <Badger@South.net > wrote
> Admit it you just can't wait to choke him out with your sarong as you
> pass.

You ought to see what Jim Ingram can do with a sarong. They're traditionally
made from a heavy, rough twisted silk, and you can't even cut them real
well/quickly.
Victor uses a neck scarf- like disco scarves used to be. It has some weight
sewn into the ends of it; fine silk, but not 'light'- a tough material. It's
used somewhat like a manriki-gusari.

> love that siloh...
> speaking of which did you get the email and on the serve?

Yeah; something about it won't load/play the way my box is set up. I'll ask
my computer wizard about it and go get it later.
I'm looking forward to it.

Chas




09 Apr 2005 16:07:08
scottsummers
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

Yeah ive seen some of Jim's sarong stuff. Ive just been a student of
his for about 1.5 years so far but seen some sarong. It is incredible.
He was showing us silat grappling positions recently that we have been
practicing that transition to all fours and then totally on the ground.
Anyways he showed some sarong applications from there. His training
for grappling used to be that he had to wear the sarong and move around
the guy to different locks without tying himself up because that is
what it will do.



09 Apr 2005 18:12:21
Chas
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

"scottsummers" <scottsummers83@hotmail.com > wrote
> Yeah ive seen some of Jim's sarong stuff. Ive just been a student of
> his for about 1.5 years so far but seen some sarong. It is incredible.

I guess I met him in the early 80's. He and his lady would come out to visit
Bill on a pretty regular basis. They would sing duets; he plays the guitar,
and they would do the traditional dances. That's where I saw the 'scarf
dance' for the Kendang. They are a wonderful couple.
He did the sarong stuff pretty regularly, and had about three distinct
styles/systems. Has he shown the stuff with it dipped in water for the
weight? He can just beat the piss out of you with a wet dhoti, bud <g >

> He was showing us silat grappling positions recently that we have been
> practicing that transition to all fours and then totally on the ground.

Yeah; anybody that thinks that silat doesn't have 'groundfighting' is just
being silly. Jim has some stuff that shows a whole set of possibilities in
several different directions; very sophisticated. His locks off the bent
arm; those unsupported chokes; the single point pins,..... bonzer shit.
His father was a Djago- a village 'strongman'; sort of a cross between a
Sheriff and a Boss. His system shows a lot more 'apprehension' or
'submission' technique than many- kind of the result of the law enforcement
aspect.

> Anyways he showed some sarong applications from there. His training
> for grappling used to be that he had to wear the sarong and move around
> the guy to different locks without tying himself up because that is
> what it will do.

Yeah; I've seen him get frisky with it too <g >
He's more 'reserved' now, but he used to be quite a showman. He was very
handsome; a body-builder, very fit, very cultured, great sense of humor. His
wife must have been a beauty queen somewhere- she was gorgeous. Very
dignified, very gracious and both of them talented and comfortable in the
pubic eye.
Please give him my deepest respects and very best regards.

Chas




09 Apr 2005 18:21:09
John Smith
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week


"Chas" <chasclementsSPOOF@comcast.net > wrote in message
news:1tCdnYtr8MlubMrfRVn-1Q@comcast.com...

> Hit them twice-
> You ever see the results of a guy getting pounded in the groin a number of
> times?
> Make ya puke just watching.

Yup, but won't bother them if their adrenaliine is flowing. In Serbia
I saw a teenager *running* down the street to get away from a sniper
(he was lucky, and he made it). Our medic had a look at him after
he got to where we were stationed ... turns out his knee cap and alot
of the material underneath was shattered. According to our medic,
the kid should have passed out with pain, and never, not in a million
years, should have been able to walk with the few strands of muscle
bone, and ligament that were holding his knee together.

My concept of what humans can do with enough adrenaline in
their system has never been the same ...

-JS2




09 Apr 2005 20:04:18
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week


Badger_South wrote:
> On 9 Apr 2005 07:43:29 -0700, unrestrained_hand@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> >Sigh. And let me guess. You're going to tell me that I need to do a
lot
> >of sparring.
> >
> >Kermit
>
> It would be good if you told us about your actual training and what
you are
> doing and experienceing now, instead of some apocryphal story about
Dim Mak
> you heard from someone else, or some conjecture about what MMA guys
do, or
> about what your SanShou instructor used to tell you.
>
> For instance what physical training did you do yesterday evening? How
about
> a note about what martial things you did this morning? ;-)
>
> -B

'K.

Last nite I did leg extensions and leg curls and abdominal crunches, 45
minutes. Also some moderate hand conditioning and bag work - no kicking
for this week I am nursing a tweaked knee. This morning, two hours of
kali in class.

Starting 1976, trained five years in Kung Fu San Soo. This is a
southern Chinese art, from a Buddhist temple (not *that Buddhist
temple). It combines strikes and kicks, chin na, throws, and pressure
points. Went to class maybe 4 times a week, 2 hours at a time, trained
another hour or two at home in solo forms or solo weapon work, another
2 or 3 hours in weights and running.

I have not averaged that much time weekly in any art since then :(

Have done perhaps four years aikido with 4 hours a week typical.

Trained 6 years, about 6 hours a week in Doce Pares escrima.

Have gone to 1 or two classes weekly the last 3 years in Combat
Technologies - my teacher is a student of Jim Keating; I've gone to 15
or so of Keating's seminars. This is mostly kali, with American knife
work and a little European fencing, and much Jeet Kune Do. Many hand
trapping drills. Knife sparring, stick drills, foot trapping. Solo
stick work for an hour or two weekly, occasional hour or so sparring or
drills with my daughter or wife. I hike or jog (OK, plod) once a week,
hit the weights for maybe two hours weekly.

I also go to a class once weekly, two hours, in Qian Tu Pai. This
teacher teaches Hapkido (the early form, pure jujitsu?), and Chen
Taiji. I do not get the workout I want in this class, but sensei knows
a *lot.

So, I know some stuff. But someone my age who started young (I started
at 27) and has been able to study under a teacher 20 hours a week will
have 5 or 6 times the training I've had.

I do not *like art hopping, but military, family, and financial
obligations intefere :(

My daughter will be off to college - or the Marines - this fall, and I
will have more time to train. I figure 5 or 10 years more before I get
too decrepit to get slammed onto the mat by the bigger, younger, guys.

Kermit



09 Apr 2005 20:47:58
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week


Jeremy Graham wrote:
> unrestrained_hand@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>
> > That's why you apply the kick first. You won't have a lot of time.
I
> > have seen boxers use this kind of pain response. A right hook to
the
> > lower ribs, and the opposing boxer drops his hands momentarily. The
> > right hook is followed *immediately by a second right hook to the
jaw.
> > If the opposing boxer is kind enough to offer the opening when
> > requested, this one-two combination can be the winning combo.
> >
> > So too with the kick. If it's hard, and I don't hesitate, I may
have an
> > opening to attack the arm or head. Why, what would you recommend?
That
> > I, a non-boxer, try to jab the boxer to create an opening? Heh.
Need I
> > tell you how *that would turn out?
>
> On a technical basis what seems wrong with it is the timing. In your
> earlier post you seemed to suggest a full-on stomp to the knee, which
I
> assume means you would chamber the kick. In that same beat, you have
to
> spot his lead leg and his weight-shift and the intention to punch,
load
> up and deliver a heavy stomp. All he has to do is take a small step
and
> jab to mess up your delivery. Not trying to make it sound like a
chess
> match, and we already noted that we can mate-and-checkmate this
scenario
> beyond all reason, but it seems to me, using what you suggest, that
your
> kick would arrive *after* the punch you're trying to stop.
>
> Maybe you're just a much faster kicker than I ever was. ;)
>

Nope, not especially fast. I was not taught to chamber kicks, nor have
I really practiced them that way. When you punch, do you "cock your
fist" first? That may be a default ready position, but if you see an
opening for your hands, don't you strike from the position your hands
are *in? I do. And my sidekick is not chambered, it goes straight from
the floor to the knee, with the bodyweight behind it. I've used a
similar starting move a lot as a stop kick. Just as my opponent commits
his weight to that lead leg, my (single move) kick starts. In friendly
bouts, I hit the shin below the knee, which locks the leg: the momentum
moves the body forward and down, and the pain also tends to drag the
upper body and hands down. *If I make that stop kick, then I usually
have a head shot or chance to grab the forward hand. I could never grab
a boxer's jab, altho I've seen it done.

Two of my fellow students used this kick in defending themselves, on
separate occasions. Each in their respective fights broke one guy's
elbow and one guy's knee. Their attackers were experienced
muggers/rapists, but presumably not trained fighters.

> But listen to Badger_South on this. He has the advantage of both
boxing
> and serious kicking experience.
>
> > I must have taken too many punches to the head from boxers. Let me
try
> > again. Yes, this snap and stomp is different from the stomp thru,
but
> > the movement up to contact with the knee is the same.
>
> OK, I thought one case you meant a chambered kick and in the other
more
> like a soccer kick.

Yeah, I can how you thought so, the way I described it, I had it
pictured clearly in *my head :P

>
> > It can be either
> > a push thru, a stomp the knee past where it straightens out all the
way
> > to the ground, or the light snap , scrape, and stomp down. Much
like
> > like a jab and a hard pushing punch are similar in movement, but
one
> > has more body weight behind it, and hits harder.
> >
> > Of course what-if scenarios can be played out ad nauseum on the
net. I
> > only wanted to illustrate one possible response a trained fighter
might
> > try against a sportsman. Someone other than the poor McDojo black
belts
> > who have been disappointed in their martial training after an
> > altercation in a bar.
>
> Sure. I just didn't get the air of "I might try this" from your first

> post. More like you thought it was a prescription.

Nope. Just a "This is one thing I might do in that situation" kind of
thing. And I know it works. Can I do it, everytime, against all comers?
The chances are somewhere between fat and slim.

>
> > I have not tried this on someone who has only trained as a boxer.
It
> > would be difficult for me to test much of this stuff, except in a
real
> > fight. Please do not accuse me of claiming to be invincible. But if
my
> > primary training is knee breaks, nose biting, wrist and finger
> > dislocations, etc, how could I be tested against a bigger wrestler
or
> > boxer if I am constrained by rules? I have average speed and
strength
> > for an athlete, short range, and am not very flexible.
>
> Some here would say you could successfully do it by 'indicating' the
> techs you don't feel comfortable using on a training partner. Many
more
> would say that if you can't test them under pressure, you can't be
sure
> they work at all.

That is always a problem, isn't it? Kung Fu San Soo *is a combat art;
our grandmaster was a brawler when he was young; my teacher and
numerous fellow students have gotten in various altercations and done
quite well. I know it works.

Now, does that mean that it is the *best way to train, or the *only way
to train? How can I test that? Get 30 judoka, 30 BJJ guys, 30 kali
guys, etc, pair them up against a San Soo guy each, and tally the
bodies afterward, I guess. Might be hard to arrange. There is also the
problem with self-selection in the various schools, the amount of time
in training, the actual techniques as compared to the training method,
etc.

I have had to move around a lot; I have trained off and on under
various instructors, and I listen to what they say, I practice the way
they say, I take everything with a grain of salt. I have opinions, all
contingent on further data, but really, how can I be sure? For
instance, I pump iron to stay as strong as reasonably possible. Does
another guy who lifts heavier weight *necessarily know more than I do?
The evidence would suggest that, but maybe he's only at 60% of his
genetic potential, and I'm at 90%.

Testing who is the best boxer or judoka or epee fencer is easy. Testing
who is the best street fighter is possible, for a small number of
people willing to pay the consequences. But maybe the winner is just
athletically smarter, or cooler under pressure, or faster and stronger
than everyone else in that small group. What would it take to determine
the best methods for people at large?

>
> > I have sparred lightly against a boxer, but since he is my current
kali
> > teacher, and a former kenpo black belt, he is not a boxer *only. We
> > both respect each other's repetroire of dirty tricks.
> >
> > He had us spar last month with training knives and fencing masks.
One
> > knife per pair, the first one was given to my lady love. My wife,
who
> > is slow and weak (compared to everyone else in our social circle)
> > lunged at fellow student Art, who is over 6 feet, muscular, and 15
> > years younger than she. He grabbed her knife arm with both of his -
she
> > was immediately trapped. His chin na skill matched hers, and he is
much
> > more powerful. So she dropped the knife into her other hand and
> > leisurely plunged it into his belly. Bwahahaha! Of course, no one
will
> > pull that off on Art again, but still...
> >
> > I do not underestimate boxers, or any strong athlete not afraid of
> > pain. But they underestimate little old men at their peril. *And
their
> > wives.
>
> Once you bring in weapons you level the playing field considerably. A

> lucky shot has far worse consequences with a knife than it does with
a kick.
>

Yup.

> Cheers,
>
> JG

Kermit



09 Apr 2005 23:01:38
Conkie
Cold Steel Sarong video

scottsummers wrote:
> Yeah ive seen some of Jim's sarong stuff. Ive just been a student of
> his for about 1.5 years so far but seen some sarong. It is incredible.
> He was showing us silat grappling positions recently that we have been

Cold Steel Sarong Video:
http://www.coldsteel.com/vdfs.html

Anyone see it ? Comments ?

Conkie


09 Apr 2005 22:09:39
Chas
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

"John Smith" <someone_else@spamisevil.com > wrote
> Yup, but won't bother them if their adrenaliine is flowing.

Yeah- well.
Maybe it only works 99% of the time-

Chas




09 Apr 2005 22:15:28
Chas
Re: Cold Steel Sarong video

"Conkie" <conkie@houseofpain.org > wrote
> Cold Steel Sarong Video:
> http://www.coldsteel.com/vdfs.html

I haven't seen it, but Ron is one of Victor de Thouars' serak gurus- that
sarong/scarf stuff I was talking about. Balicki is a hell of a martial
artist; stunt man, one of Inosanto's guys, jujutsu bb, helluva knife guy- he
was refined before he met Victor, much less afterwards.

Chas




09 Apr 2005 23:37:02
Conkie
Re: Cold Steel Sarong video

Chas wrote:
> I haven't seen it, but Ron is one of Victor de Thouars' serak gurus- that
> sarong/scarf stuff I was talking about. Balicki is a hell of a martial
> artist; stunt man, one of Inosanto's guys, jujutsu bb, helluva knife guy- he
> was refined before he met Victor, much less afterwards.
> Chas

So I guess the original assessment stands... LT = twat with good
sub-contractors...

Conkie



10 Apr 2005 16:39:09
T
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

> Now, does that mean that it is the *best way to train, or the *only way
> to train? How can I test that? Get 30 judoka, 30 BJJ guys, 30 kali
> guys, etc, pair them up against a San Soo guy each, and tally the
> bodies afterward, I guess. Might be hard to arrange. There is also the
> problem with self-selection in the various schools, the amount of time
> in training, the actual techniques as compared to the training method,
> etc.
>
> I have had to move around a lot; I have trained off and on under
> various instructors, and I listen to what they say, I practice the way
> they say, I take everything with a grain of salt. I have opinions, all
> contingent on further data, but really, how can I be sure? For
> instance, I pump iron to stay as strong as reasonably possible. Does
> another guy who lifts heavier weight *necessarily know more than I do?
> The evidence would suggest that, but maybe he's only at 60% of his
> genetic potential, and I'm at 90%.
>
> Testing who is the best boxer or judoka or epee fencer is easy. Testing
> who is the best street fighter is possible, for a small number of
> people willing to pay the consequences. But maybe the winner is just
> athletically smarter, or cooler under pressure, or faster and stronger
> than everyone else in that small group. What would it take to determine
> the best methods for people at large?

MMA competition. ;-)


10 Apr 2005 20:09:54
libbysleuth
Re: Cold Steel Sarong video

damn chas, you make an explanation so good that you don't ever have to say
anything bad about a guy for everyone to get the gist... hahaha


"Conkie" <conkie@houseofpain.org > wrote in message
news:1113107824.d463cc27dbc7943db331af4c3f6e0bcc@teranews...
> Chas wrote:
> > I haven't seen it, but Ron is one of Victor de Thouars' serak gurus-
that
> > sarong/scarf stuff I was talking about. Balicki is a hell of a martial
> > artist; stunt man, one of Inosanto's guys, jujutsu bb, helluva knife
guy- he
> > was refined before he met Victor, much less afterwards.
> > Chas
>
> So I guess the original assessment stands... LT = twat with good
> sub-contractors...
>
> Conkie
>




11 Apr 2005 13:43:39
Jeremy Graham
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week

Badger_South wrote:
> On Sat, 9 Apr 2005 04:53:52 GMT, Jeremy Graham <sodeguruma@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
>
>>But listen to Badger_South on this. He has the advantage of both boxing
>>and serious kicking experience.
>>
>>
>>>I must have taken too many punches to the head from boxers. Let me try
>>>again. Yes, this snap and stomp is different from the stomp thru, but
>>>the movement up to contact with the knee is the same.
>>
>>OK, I thought one case you meant a chambered kick and in the other more
>>like a soccer kick.
>
>
> Thanks for the comment JG, but he shouldn't listen to me...he has to go out
> and -do- this move in your next sparring session. Prove it to himself.

So you say.. But then go on to totally prove why he *should* listen to
you. ;)

I was channelling you this weekend. The weather finally got nice enough
to hook the kid's trailer up to the bikes and take them for a ride in
the ravine near the house. There were about a million wide-eyed tourists
on the paths. Bikes in the middle of the trail, dogs off leashes, the
works. One thing if it's just me on a mountain bike, but with the missus
pulling the kids in the trailer it wasn't so easy to just scream around
them. I was getting pretty PO'ed, to the extent that it was spoiling the
outing, so I tried to let it go per your post last week. Worked like a
charm. :)

JG


29 Apr 2005 20:47:39
Re: A good boxer can defeat a martial arts wimp any day of the week


Chas wrote:
> "Badger_South" <Badger@South.net> wrote
> > Have you -ever- taken down someone by kicking their knee like this,
or
> > have
> > you -ever- seen anyone actually take someone down by performing
this side
> > kick?
>
> Yes; both; a number of times.
>
> > Has anyone even told you a story where he beat the baddies by
sidekicking
> > their knee and devastating them? <shaking head no>
>
> Lotsa fucked-up-his-knee stories, bud.
>
> > At least the Silat guys realize that all the classical 'karate'
targetting
> > is wrong. They go for the hip fold.
>
> Yeah; the hip-joint is a major target- as is the ankle/foot bones.
Attacking
> the knee is mostly to cause that first 'fold' in his skeleton
>
> > Remember the guy whose knee you are kicking is trying to rip your
head off
> > with punches. When you lift your leg to kick the knee he seems to
be
> > offering, you just gave him a double leg, or an ankle pick (on the
other
> > leg).
>
> Remember that we're coming at you with the legs in line, the hips
torqued
> and the shoulders squared to you. A lot of the targets presented by
other
> stances are not available without suffering the counter.
> Admittedly we target the choke more than most, but a lot of the 'body

> disruption' stuff is just to position your head for a targetted
attack.
>
> > If you want to do things to the opponent's knee, or take him down,
talk to
> > a Silat guy, (who if he's honest will tell you it's not gonna
happen
> > unless
> > you catch the guy flat-footed)
>
> We're doing it from about six inches closer to the opponent than most
do. We
> don't 'reach out', we step closer.
>
> > Then when you think you have it, try your
> > move on a couple wrestlers after you give them instruction to try
and take
> > you down and choke the crap outta you, when you say 'go' - at which
point
> > you are going to devastate them with a sidekick to their leg.
>
> Why in the world would you want to use an application where it's not
> appropriate?
> 'Knee-knock and Sapu' don't work 'twice'- they never have had to.
Originally
> it was used to break his posture whilst clinched up top (as with
weapons).
> If you're close enough to knee-knock, your heel is alredy *past* his
and
> your body is in contact from foot to shoulder. There's a strong
head-butt
> that accompanies it as well. You can't do it from a distance, so you
don't
> even consider it.
> Silat players *are* grapplers, the 'only' reason for punching is to
get
> close to the enemy, break his posture and go to the ground with a
lock
> already in place (hopefully <g>).
> The positioning on the ground can be in mount/guard or siloh- a
position no
> other art uses in quite the same way.
>
> Chas