25 Feb 2005 10:06:59
Saps, blackjacks, and batons

>From the "the fact that he's better than me doesn't mean I have to
loose" files, I've been thinking about picking up something blunt to
compliment my something sharp, just in case I'm dealing with a
situation that is more than hands, but less than cutting. Any opinions
as to what is the best tool in terms of concealability, non-lethality,
and legality?

I seem to remember that a sap is made of buckshot, and tends to knock a
guy out, whereas a blackjack is made of lead, and tends to knock pieces
of the skull out, but my memories are faint. Also, how do you guys
feel about battons? Collapsable? Automatic?



25 Feb 2005 11:30:05
Steve Gartin
Re: Saps, blackjacks, and batons

Hi Thomas-galvin,

Lots of choices at: http://warriorschest.com/pals.htm

I'm sure Chas will be happy to explain the nuances.

Steve
www.kuntaosilat.com

<usenet@thomas-galvin.com > wrote in message
news:1109354819.062163.290860@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> >From the "the fact that he's better than me doesn't mean I have to
> loose" files, I've been thinking about picking up something blunt to
> compliment my something sharp, just in case I'm dealing with a
> situation that is more than hands, but less than cutting. Any opinions
> as to what is the best tool in terms of concealability, non-lethality,
> and legality?
>
> I seem to remember that a sap is made of buckshot, and tends to knock a
> guy out, whereas a blackjack is made of lead, and tends to knock pieces
> of the skull out, but my memories are faint. Also, how do you guys
> feel about battons? Collapsable? Automatic?
>




25 Feb 2005 10:36:01
Pierre Honeyman
Re: Saps, blackjacks, and batons


use...@thomas-galvin.com wrote:

> Any opinions
> as to what is the best tool in terms of concealability,

With the right clothing you can conceal almost anything. That said, a
small sap (think of the Bucheimer Midget), will conceal pretty good in
a back pocket.

>non-lethality,

If you have to use a weapon, non-lethality should be a secondary
consideration. What you're looking for is stopping power, and since
that requires getting the other guy's brain to tell him to lie down and
remain very still, there is always a risk of lethality. Especially
since you want to knock him out, and probably don't plan on lowering
him gently to the ground.

> and legality?

In terms of legality, the only answer is to consult a lawyer, or to not
worry about it. It's really a hairy problem with no good answer
because it's so jurisdictionally dependant.

> I seem to remember that a sap is made of buckshot, and tends to knock
a
> guy out, whereas a blackjack is made of lead, and tends to knock
pieces
> of the skull out, but my memories are faint.

According to some definitions that's close enough. Also, it's not rare
to find spring handles on a lot of sap-like-objects. There are also
palm saps, which are beautiful little objects of mass destruction.

> Also, how do you guys
> feel about battons? Collapsable? Automatic?

I'm an FMA guy so I'm a big fan of sticks. If, as Chas suggests, you
think of the collapsible/automatic batons as one-time-use objects, then
I don't know that you're going to go too wrong with them.

Pierre (IH)



25 Feb 2005 13:37:15
Rikki-Tikki-Weasel-not-a-Badge
Re: Saps, blackjacks, and batons


use...@thomas-galvin.com wrote:
> >From the "the fact that he's better than me doesn't mean I have to
> loose" files, I've been thinking about picking up something blunt to
> compliment my something sharp, just in case I'm dealing with a
> situation that is more than hands, but less than cutting. Any opinions
> as to what is the best tool in terms of concealability, non-lethality,
> and legality?

A cane.

Nothing else approaches it in terms of legality and concealability in the
modern context.

Being a "blunt" you have more options for moderating force; from "thump'n"
up through "skull crush'n."

It also offers more reach than almost any other "blunts" alternative.


> I seem to remember that a sap is made of buckshot, and tends to knock a
> guy out, whereas a blackjack is made of lead, and tends to knock pieces
> of the skull out, but my memories are faint.

You can google up Chas' comments on the items. He's weighed in many
times. Also check out Don Rearics pages on the topic.

http://www.donrearic.com/sap.html


> Also, how do you guys
> feel about battons? Collapsable? Automatic?

Great tools.

Canes are better.

Peace favor your sword (IH)



25 Feb 2005 10:45:40
Pierre Honeyman
Re: Saps, blackjacks, and batons


Rikki-Tikki-Weasel-not-a-Badger wrote:

> Canes are better.

Better for what?

Pierre (IH)



25 Feb 2005 11:01:25
Rabid_Weasel_Wishes_he_were_a_
Re: Saps, blackjacks, and batons


Pierre Honeyman wrote:
> Rikki-Tikki-Weasel-not-a-Badger wrote:
>
> > Canes are better.
>
> Better for what?

For the stated purpose of being a Legal, Concealable, and to be able to
have thier force mitigated by the user, as the poster requested.

:-)

Plus, on top of that, canes have identical mechanics and superior reach
then the colapsables.

By almost any definition a cane is a superior weapon to a collapsable
baton. The only thing those batons have going for them is that you can
squash 'em down to about 1/3 their extended length.

Peace favor your sword (IH)



25 Feb 2005 11:16:38
Pierre Honeyman
Re: Saps, blackjacks, and batons


Rabid_Weasel_Wishes_he_were_a_badger wrote:
> Pierre Honeyman wrote:
> > Rikki-Tikki-Weasel-not-a-Badger wrote:
> >
> > > Canes are better.
> >
> > Better for what?
>
> For the stated purpose of being a Legal, Concealable, and to be able
to
> have thier force mitigated by the user, as the poster requested.
>
> :-)

I think you're biased towards the "legal" term in that phrase :)

> Plus, on top of that, canes have identical mechanics

That depends a *lot* on the cane doesn't it?

> and superior reach
> then the colapsables.

That they do.

> By almost any definition a cane is a superior weapon to a collapsable
> baton.

If that definition includes "legal" :)

> The only thing those batons have going for them is that you can
> squash 'em down to about 1/3 their extended length.

For the purposes of concealability.

For a concealable blunt weapon that hits hard and can be mitigated, I
prefer the sap family.

For a concealable blunt weapon that you really don't want anyone to
see, collapsible batons are pretty good.

For a walking around weapon that has some advantages over both of the
above, a cane is very good. But you have to be ok with walking around
with a cane :)

Pierre (IH)



25 Feb 2005 14:46:22
Rikki-Tikki-Weasel-not-a-Badge
Re: Saps, blackjacks, and batons


Pierre Honeyman wrote:
> Rabid_Weasel_Wishes_he_were_a_badger wrote:
> > Pierre Honeyman wrote:
> > > Rikki-Tikki-Weasel-not-a-Badger wrote:
> > >
> > > > Canes are better.
> > >
> > > Better for what?
> >
> > For the stated purpose of being a Legal, Concealable, and to be able
> to
> > have thier force mitigated by the user, as the poster requested.
> >
> > :-)
>
> I think you're biased towards the "legal" term in that phrase :)

Nah. Actually, I've got bias towards "concealable" but admit that I'm
using a liberal understanding of the term. When I say concealable I
include the "hidden in plain sight" understanding. That's the way it is
with a cane. I went to the Post Office to send off a bata video I'd
dubbed and carrying my cane with me. Some guy smiled and held open the
door for me. He saw a cane not a Self Defense tool.


> > Plus, on top of that, canes have identical mechanics
>
> That depends a *lot* on the cane doesn't it?

Well, yeah. I assume that the cane selected is of suitable quality to not
burst to flinders upon impact. You know "not balsa wood" type stuff? Just
as when we discuss colapsable batons we're assuming "not an aluminum TV
antena we broke off of the Rabbit Ears."


> > By almost any definition a cane is a superior weapon to a collapsable
> > baton.
>
> If that definition includes "legal" :)

If that definition includes: Greater Reach.

If that definition includes: Hidden in plain sight

If that definition includes: Acts like a stick

Any of the above in combination or isolation.


> > The only thing those batons have going for them is that you can
> > squash 'em down to about 1/3 their extended length.
>
> For the purposes of concealability.

IIRC it was for purposes of easy portability. You can tote 'em on your
hip in a suitable scabbard.


> For a concealable blunt weapon that hits hard and can be mitigated, I
> prefer the sap family.

Fair enough. Personally I dissagree because I feel it's harder to
mitigate a flexible weapon like a sap. You can swing it less hard, just
as with a stick, but it's hard to slow it down mid swing as you can with a
stick.

Still I understand that it's posible to mitigate and this is heavily
impacted by personal preference.


> For a concealable blunt weapon that you really don't want anyone to
> see, collapsible batons are pretty good.

Do you want to to not "see" it or do you want them to not "notice" or not
"care if they do" notice it?

Let your ASP peek out and there are some people who'll (unjustifiably)
have kittens. No one cares if you have a cane.


> For a walking around weapon that has some advantages over both of the
> above, a cane is very good.

Better, IMO. It's eaqually "concealable" (more so, IMO since you don't
have to take steps to prevent accidetal viewing or "printing").


> But you have to be ok with walking around with a cane :)

That's the catch. My wife doesn't much like when I wald with it when out
with her. She think it makes me look old. I tell her that just means
that people think I got me a Trophy Wife.

Peace favor your sword (IH)



25 Feb 2005 14:54:33
Rikki-Tikki-Weasel-not-a-Badge
Re: Saps, blackjacks, and batons


Pierre Honeyman wrote:
> Rabid_Weasel_Wishes_he_were_a_badger wrote:
> > Pierre Honeyman wrote:
> > > Rikki-Tikki-Weasel-not-a-Badger wrote:
> > >
> > > > Canes are better.
> > >
> > > Better for what?
> >
> > For the stated purpose of being a Legal, Concealable, and to be able
> to
> > have thier force mitigated by the user, as the poster requested.
> >
> > :-)
>
> I think you're biased towards the "legal" term in that phrase :)

Nah. Actually, I've got bias towards "concealable" but admit that I'm
using a liberal understanding of the term. When I say concealable I
include the "hidden in plain sight" understanding. That's the way it is
with a cane. I went to the Post Office to send off a bata video I'd
dubbed and carrying my cane with me. Some guy smiled and held open the
door for me. He saw a cane not a Self Defense tool.


> > Plus, on top of that, canes have identical mechanics
>
> That depends a *lot* on the cane doesn't it?

Well, yeah. I assume that the cane selected is of suitable quality to not
burst to flinders upon impact. You know "not balsa wood" type stuff? Just
as when we discuss colapsable batons we're assuming "not an aluminum TV
antena we broke off of the Rabbit Ears."


> > By almost any definition a cane is a superior weapon to a collapsable
> > baton.
>
> If that definition includes "legal" :)

If that definition includes: Greater Reach.

If that definition includes: Hidden in plain sight

If that definition includes: Acts like a stick

Any of the above in combination or isolation.


> > The only thing those batons have going for them is that you can
> > squash 'em down to about 1/3 their extended length.
>
> For the purposes of concealability.

IIRC it was for purposes of easy portability. You can tote 'em on your
hip in a suitable scabbard.


> For a concealable blunt weapon that hits hard and can be mitigated, I
> prefer the sap family.

Fair enough. Personally I dissagree because I feel it's harder to
mitigate a flexible weapon like a sap. You can swing it less hard, just
as with a stick, but it's hard to slow it down mid swing as you can with a
stick.

Still I understand that it's posible to mitigate and this is heavily
impacted by personal preference.


> For a concealable blunt weapon that you really don't want anyone to
> see, collapsible batons are pretty good.

Do you want to to not "see" it or do you want them to not "notice" or not
"care if they do" notice it?

Let your ASP peek out and there are some people who'll (unjustifiably)
have kittens. No one cares if you have a cane.


> For a walking around weapon that has some advantages over both of the
> above, a cane is very good.

Better, IMO. It's eaqually "concealable" (more so, IMO since you don't
have to take steps to prevent accidetal viewing or "printing").


> But you have to be ok with walking around with a cane :)

That's the catch. My wife doesn't much like when I wald with it when out
with her. She think it makes me look old. I tell her that just means
that people think I got me a Trophy Wife.

Peace favor your sword (IH)



25 Feb 2005 14:57:27
Badger North
Re: Saps, blackjacks, and batons

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 14:46:22 -0500, "Rikki-Tikki-Weasel-not-a-Badger"
<NO_lawson_SPAM_@dayton.net > wrote:

>That's the catch. My wife doesn't much like when I wald with it when out
>with her. She think it makes me look old. I tell her that just means
>that people think I got me a Trophy Wife.

We'll have to start calling you "Sugar Daddy" Lawson.

Badger Jones
www.youngforest.ca


25 Feb 2005 12:19:40
Kirk Sugar Daddy Lawson
Re: Saps, blackjacks, and batons


Badger North wrote:
> On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 14:46:22 -0500, "Rikki-Tikki-Weasel-not-a-Badger"
> <NO_lawson_SPAM_@dayton.net> wrote:
>
> >That's the catch. My wife doesn't much like when I wald with it
when out
> >with her. She think it makes me look old. I tell her that just
means
> >that people think I got me a Trophy Wife.
>
> We'll have to start calling you "Sugar Daddy" Lawson.
>
> Badger Jones
> www.youngforest.ca

Well, it ain't "Badger" but it's probably better than "Rabid Weasel"

Peace favor your sword (IH),
Kirk "Always a Sugar Daddy never a Badger" Lawson



25 Feb 2005 12:24:04
Bryce
Re: Saps, blackjacks, and batons


"Kirk Sugar Daddy Lawson" <lklawson@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1109362780.627032.38110@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> Badger North wrote:
>> On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 14:46:22 -0500, "Rikki-Tikki-Weasel-not-a-Badger"
>> <NO_lawson_SPAM_@dayton.net> wrote:
>>
>> >That's the catch. My wife doesn't much like when I wald with it
> when out
>> >with her. She think it makes me look old. I tell her that just
> means
>> >that people think I got me a Trophy Wife.
>>
>> We'll have to start calling you "Sugar Daddy" Lawson.
>>
>> Badger Jones
>> www.youngforest.ca
>
> Well, it ain't "Badger" but it's probably better than "Rabid Weasel"
>
> Peace favor your sword (IH),
> Kirk "Always a Sugar Daddy never a Badger" Lawson
>

I suggest a compromise. Maybe "Sugar Weasel", or possibly "Rabid Sugar
Daddy".




25 Feb 2005 12:31:42
Kirk Sugar Daddy Lawson
Re: Saps, blackjacks, and batons


Bryce wrote:
> "Kirk Sugar Daddy Lawson" <lklawson@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1109362780.627032.38110@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > Badger North wrote:
> >> On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 14:46:22 -0500,
"Rikki-Tikki-Weasel-not-a-Badger"
> >> <NO_lawson_SPAM_@dayton.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> >That's the catch. My wife doesn't much like when I wald with it
> > when out
> >> >with her. She think it makes me look old. I tell her that just
> > means
> >> >that people think I got me a Trophy Wife.
> >>
> >> We'll have to start calling you "Sugar Daddy" Lawson.
> >>
> >> Badger Jones
> >> www.youngforest.ca
> >
> > Well, it ain't "Badger" but it's probably better than "Rabid
Weasel"
> >
> > Peace favor your sword (IH),
> > Kirk "Always a Sugar Daddy never a Badger" Lawson
> >
>
> I suggest a compromise. Maybe "Sugar Weasel", or possibly "Rabid
Sugar
> Daddy".


Let's take a vote.

Peace favor your sword (IH)



25 Feb 2005 15:43:52
Badger_South
Re: Saps, blackjacks, and batons

On 25 Feb 2005 10:36:01 -0800, "Pierre Honeyman" <phoneyman@telus.net >
wrote:

>
>I'm an FMA guy so I'm a big fan of sticks. If, as Chas suggests, you
>think of the collapsible/automatic batons as one-time-use objects, then
>I don't know that you're going to go too wrong with them.
>
>Pierre (IH)

From a conservative point of view, I don't think the increase risk of using
a collapseable baton is worth the utility, unless you're in law
enforcement. Sure, train with them if you wanna, but I wouldn't advise
carrying them. Even with a philosopy of disposability you can easily lose a
case if it goes to a trial, even if the other guy was clearly a baddie,
imo.

Though they're fun and often readily available, things like saps, double
edged blades, sword-canes, switchblades, stun-guns, metal batons and the
like are probably overkill. Most people would say if you're going to need
deadly force, get a CCW and a gun; heck there's probably more negativity
towards someone with one of these weapons than a gun in most places.

Probably better go to a combat-flashlight like surefire or the 'cutter',
and pepper spray before going to blackjacks and batons - then if you need
more uh, 'firepower', get a gun. ;-)

-B



25 Feb 2005 15:48:36
Badger_South
Re: Saps, blackjacks, and batons

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 13:37:15 -0500, "Rikki-Tikki-Weasel-not-a-Badger"
<NO_lawson_SPAM_@dayton.net > wrote:

>
>use...@thomas-galvin.com wrote:
>> >From the "the fact that he's better than me doesn't mean I have to
>> loose" files, I've been thinking about picking up something blunt to
>> compliment my something sharp, just in case I'm dealing with a
>> situation that is more than hands, but less than cutting. Any opinions
>> as to what is the best tool in terms of concealability, non-lethality,
>> and legality?
>
>A cane.

Good answer. Cane and a Surefire flashlight are tops in my book.

>Nothing else approaches it in terms of legality and concealability in the
>modern context.

Yeah, even better if you have a bit of a limp, which we, being the
over-the-hill-gang certainly all have, eh? ;-p

>Being a "blunt" you have more options for moderating force; from "thump'n"
>up through "skull crush'n."
>
>It also offers more reach than almost any other "blunts" alternative.

Great 'keep-away' ability, too, which can be a great de-escalator, and
escape enabler.

>> I seem to remember that a sap is made of buckshot, and tends to knock a
>> guy out, whereas a blackjack is made of lead, and tends to knock pieces
>> of the skull out, but my memories are faint.
>
>You can google up Chas' comments on the items. He's weighed in many
>times. Also check out Don Rearics pages on the topic.
>
>http://www.donrearic.com/sap.html

If you haven't visited Don's site, go. It's a hoot. Check out the
martialist, too: www.themartialist.com/

>> Also, how do you guys
>> feel about battons? Collapsable? Automatic?
>
>Great tools.
>
>Canes are better.

-B



25 Feb 2005 15:49:36
Rikki-Tikki-Weasel-not-a-Badge
Re: Saps, blackjacks, and batons

Badger_South wrote:

> Though they're fun and often readily available, things like saps,
double
> edged blades, sword-canes, switchblades, stun-guns, metal batons and
the
> like are probably overkill. Most people would say if you're going to
need
> deadly force, get a CCW and a gun; heck there's probably more
negativity
> towards someone with one of these weapons than a gun in most places.

Stun-guns? I'm not so sure about them. Generally they're reguarded as
"less than lethal" solutions akin to Pepper Spray.

Any particular reason you includes stun-guns on the list?

Peace favor your sword (IH),
Kirk



25 Feb 2005 15:51:33
Badger_South
Re: Saps, blackjacks, and batons

On 25 Feb 2005 11:01:25 -0800, "Rabid_Weasel_Wishes_he_were_a_badger"
<lklawson@gmail.com > wrote:

>
>Pierre Honeyman wrote:
>> Rikki-Tikki-Weasel-not-a-Badger wrote:
>>
>> > Canes are better.
>>
>> Better for what?
>
>For the stated purpose of being a Legal, Concealable, and to be able to
>have thier force mitigated by the user, as the poster requested.
>
>:-)
>
>Plus, on top of that, canes have identical mechanics and superior reach
>then the colapsables.
>
>By almost any definition a cane is a superior weapon to a collapsable
>baton. The only thing those batons have going for them is that you can
>squash 'em down to about 1/3 their extended length.
>
>Peace favor your sword (IH)

My Leki brand cane (*) is collapseable. A combat version in aircraft
aluminum would be nifty! That would allow whacking and poking both.

(*)(it goes from full extention to 2/3 of it's length, such that you can
hang it off your belt easily if you need both hands)

-B



25 Feb 2005 12:52:23
Pierre Honeyman
Re: Saps, blackjacks, and batons


Badger_South wrote:
> On 25 Feb 2005 10:36:01 -0800, "Pierre Honeyman"
<phoneyman@telus.net >
> wrote:
>
> >
> >I'm an FMA guy so I'm a big fan of sticks. If, as Chas suggests,
you
> >think of the collapsible/automatic batons as one-time-use objects,
then
> >I don't know that you're going to go too wrong with them.
> >
> >Pierre (IH)
>
> From a conservative point of view, I don't think the increase risk of
using
> a collapseable baton is worth the utility,

Increase in risk?

> unless you're in law
> enforcement. Sure, train with them if you wanna, but I wouldn't
advise
> carrying them. Even with a philosopy of disposability you can easily
lose a
> case if it goes to a trial, even if the other guy was clearly a
baddie,
> imo.

That all depends on where you live.

> Though they're fun and often readily available, things like saps,
double
> edged blades, sword-canes, switchblades, stun-guns, metal batons and
the
> like are probably overkill.

It all depends on the situation.

> Most people would say if you're going to need
> deadly force, get a CCW and a gun;

I agree with this, but that wasn't the poster's question. And also,
*I* can't - because of the local laws.

> heck there's probably more negativity
> towards someone with one of these weapons than a gun in most places.

Probably.

> Probably better go to a combat-flashlight like surefire or the
'cutter',
> and pepper spray before going to blackjacks and batons - then if you
need
> more uh, 'firepower', get a gun. ;-)

Nothing wrong with a good club-light either.

Pierre (IH)



25 Feb 2005 12:54:17
Pierre Honeyman
Re: Saps, blackjacks, and batons


Rikki-Tikki-Weasel-not-a-Badger wrote:
> Badger_South wrote:
>
> > Though they're fun and often readily available, things like saps,
> double
> > edged blades, sword-canes, switchblades, stun-guns, metal batons
and
> the
> > like are probably overkill. Most people would say if you're going
to
> need
> > deadly force, get a CCW and a gun; heck there's probably more
> negativity
> > towards someone with one of these weapons than a gun in most
places.
>
> Stun-guns? I'm not so sure about them. Generally they're reguarded
as
> "less than lethal" solutions akin to Pepper Spray.
>
> Any particular reason you includes stun-guns on the list?

My guess is, like bullet-proof vests, people tend to see them as either
tools for cops, or tools for thugs.

Pierre (IH)



25 Feb 2005 16:02:39
Rikki-Tikki-Weasel-not-a-Badge
Re: Saps, blackjacks, and batons

Pierre Honeyman wrote:

> > Any particular reason you includes stun-guns on the list?
>
> My guess is, like bullet-proof vests, people tend to see them as either
> tools for cops, or tools for thugs.

Hmmm...

I've known lotsa chicks to cary them.

First one I saw up close belonged to a chick.

Peace favor your sword (IH),
Kirk



25 Feb 2005 16:03:17
Rikki-Tikki-Weasel-not-a-Badge
Re: Saps, blackjacks, and batons

Badger_South wrote:

> >You can google up Chas' comments on the items. He's weighed in many
> >times. Also check out Don Rearics pages on the topic.
> >
> >http://www.donrearic.com/sap.html
>
> If you haven't visited Don's site, go. It's a hoot.

Yeah. Great stuff. :-)


> Check out the martialist, too: www.themartialist.com/

Yeah. I don't agree with half of what he says but it's generally a
thought provoking read at least. I keep meaning to sign up for a
membership (& past issues) but still don't have my Roundtuit.

I have been participating on his fourm (paxbaculum.com) for a couple of
months.

Peace favor your sword (IH),
Kirk



25 Feb 2005 16:00:32
Badger North
Re: Saps, blackjacks, and batons

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 12:24:04 -0800, "Bryce" <me@nomail.com > wrote:

>> Well, it ain't "Badger" but it's probably better than "Rabid Weasel"
>>
>> Kirk "Always a Sugar Daddy never a Badger" Lawson
>
>I suggest a compromise. Maybe "Sugar Weasel", or possibly "Rabid Sugar
>Daddy".

Ow! You bastard!

That is definitely the last time I eat chocolate-covered almonds while
reading RMA!

(anybody know how to dislodge one 'a those things from a sinus
cavity?)

Badger Jones
www.youngforest.ca


25 Feb 2005 16:08:51
Badger North
Re: Saps, blackjacks, and batons

On 25 Feb 2005 12:19:40 -0800, "Kirk Sugar Daddy Lawson"
<lklawson@gmail.com > wrote:

>Well, it ain't "Badger" but it's probably better than "Rabid Weasel"

Once upon a time, there was an Indian, by the name of Johnny
Farts-When-He-Eats. As you can understand, Johnny was not too
enamoured of his last name.

In consultation with the elders, it was decided that Johnny would
throw a potlach, and in return would be given a better name.

The potlach turned out to be rather dismal. The food was poor, the
gifts were cheap. But... a deal is a deal. Johnny would be given a
better name.

Which is how he became Johnny Doesn't-Fart-When-He-Eats.

Badger Jones
www.youngforest.ca


25 Feb 2005 15:45:02
Matthew Weigel
Re: Saps, blackjacks, and batons

Badger North wrote:

> (anybody know how to dislodge one 'a those things from a sinus
> cavity?)

Yeah, but my technique lodges it in your brain, killing you.
--
Matthew Weigel


25 Feb 2005 16:57:34
Re: Saps, blackjacks, and batons

Badger North wrote:
>
> (anybody know how to dislodge one 'a those things from a sinus
> cavity?)

Insert nose into vacuum cleaner hose. Seal hose around nose with duct
tape. Turn vacuum cleaner on. Wait a few seconds. Turn vacuum cleaner
off. Remove duct tape. Open vacuum cleaner's container. Retrieve as
many chunks of brain you can find. Re-insert brain into nostrils.


25 Feb 2005 17:25:06
Badger_South
Re: Saps, blackjacks, and batons

On 25 Feb 2005 12:31:42 -0800, "Kirk Sugar Daddy Lawson"
<lklawson@gmail.com > wrote:

>> > Well, it ain't "Badger" but it's probably better than "Rabid
>Weasel"
>> >
>> > Peace favor your sword (IH),
>> > Kirk "Always a Sugar Daddy never a Badger" Lawson
>> >
>>
>> I suggest a compromise. Maybe "Sugar Weasel", or possibly "Rabid
>Sugar
>> Daddy".
>
>
>Let's take a vote.
>
>Peace favor your sword (IH)

I believe there is a 'Honey Badger' (Mellivora capensis), slot open.

http://www.honeybadger.com/

The most fearless animal in the world, when challenged at close quarters,
the relatively slow moving honey badger does put up a formidable display
which includes the release of a strong scent from their anal scent glands,
a loud "rattling- roar" and rushing movements towards the potential enemy
whatever its size, especially if they're taking the last beer. ;-p

-B



25 Feb 2005 17:30:48
Badger_South
Re: Saps, blackjacks, and batons

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 16:03:17 -0500, "Rikki-Tikki-Weasel-not-a-Badger"
<NO_lawson_SPAM_@dayton.net > wrote:

>Badger_South wrote:
>
>> >You can google up Chas' comments on the items. He's weighed in many
>> >times. Also check out Don Rearics pages on the topic.
>> >
>> >http://www.donrearic.com/sap.html
>>
>> If you haven't visited Don's site, go. It's a hoot.
>
>Yeah. Great stuff. :-)
>
>
>> Check out the martialist, too: www.themartialist.com/
>
>Yeah. I don't agree with half of what he says but it's generally a
>thought provoking read at least.

True. I like it for the gear reviews.

He's pretty polarized on some topics and still hangs on to some out-moded
fighting, but he often gives both sides equal time. (see archives:
http://www.themartialist.com/archives.htm)

-B

>I keep meaning to sign up for a
>membership (& past issues) but still don't have my Roundtuit.
>
>I have been participating on his fourm (paxbaculum.com) for a couple of
>months.
>
>Peace favor your sword (IH),
>Kirk



25 Feb 2005 17:35:53
Badger_South
Re: Saps, blackjacks, and batons

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 15:49:36 -0500, "Rikki-Tikki-Weasel-not-a-Badger"
<NO_lawson_SPAM_@dayton.net > wrote:

>Badger_South wrote:
>
>> Though they're fun and often readily available, things like saps,
>double
>> edged blades, sword-canes, switchblades, stun-guns, metal batons and
>the
>> like are probably overkill. Most people would say if you're going to
>need
>> deadly force, get a CCW and a gun; heck there's probably more
>negativity
>> towards someone with one of these weapons than a gun in most places.
>
>Stun-guns? I'm not so sure about them. Generally they're reguarded as
>"less than lethal" solutions akin to Pepper Spray.
>
>Any particular reason you includes stun-guns on the list?
>
>Peace favor your sword (IH),
>Kirk

Gee, maybe it is legal to use a stun-gun to defend yourself...googling...

OK, only illegal in:
District of Columbia
Hawaii
Massachusetts
Michigan
New Jersey
New York
Rhode Island
Wisconsin
Baltimore
Philadelphia
New York City
Howard County, MD

Might depend on your local prosecutor. I'd check with local authorities
before getting one...might be legal with restrictions on type or voltage.

Here's a random page: http://www.actionstunguns.com/restrictionsandlaws.htm

I stand corrected.

-B



25 Feb 2005 22:36:43
Robert Low
Re: Saps, blackjacks, and batons

Badger North wrote:

> (anybody know how to dislodge one 'a those things from a sinus
> cavity?)

Got a crochet hook handy?

--
Rob


25 Feb 2005 14:45:44
Bryce
Re: Saps, blackjacks, and batons


"Badger_South" <Badger@South.net > wrote in message
news:g09v11112p9rhq5kltf7la5p92jtanr2d9@4ax.com...
> On 25 Feb 2005 12:31:42 -0800, "Kirk Sugar Daddy Lawson"
> <lklawson@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> > Well, it ain't "Badger" but it's probably better than "Rabid
>>Weasel"
>>> >
>>> > Peace favor your sword (IH),
>>> > Kirk "Always a Sugar Daddy never a Badger" Lawson
>>> >
>>>
>>> I suggest a compromise. Maybe "Sugar Weasel", or possibly "Rabid
>>Sugar
>>> Daddy".
>>
>>
>>Let's take a vote.
>>
>>Peace favor your sword (IH)
>
> I believe there is a 'Honey Badger' (Mellivora capensis), slot open.
>
> http://www.honeybadger.com/
>
> The most fearless animal in the world, when challenged at close quarters,
> the relatively slow moving honey badger does put up a formidable display
> which includes the release of a strong scent from their anal scent glands,
> a loud "rattling- roar" and rushing movements towards the potential enemy
> whatever its size, especially if they're taking the last beer. ;-p
>
> -B
>

This could be a winner. A couple of excerpts from the site:

The Honey badger has been referred to as "the meanest animal in the world",
and they are often considered to have no enemies, apart from man
Do honey badgers emasculate their prey?

Honey badgers are reputed to go for the scrotum when attacking large
animals. The first published record of this behaviour was a circumstantial
account by Stevenson- Hamilton (1947) where a badger reportedly castrated an
adult Buffalo. Other animals alleged to have been emasculated by honey
badgers include wildebeest, waterbuck, kudu, zebra and man. This has also
been reported by other African tribes, but no direct evidence exists to
support this behaviour.

It has been reported that honey badgers will play dead when wounded
(Kingdon 1977; Estes 1992). Recently a badger was found lying on the edge of
a road in the Phinda Game Reserve (Kwazulu Natal, South Africa). This
individual appeared to be dead, but on closer inspection it chased the
observer around his vehicle.




25 Feb 2005 16:21:30
Chas
Re: Saps, blackjacks, and batons

"Badger_South" <Badger@South.net > wrote
> My Leki brand cane (*) is collapseable. A combat version in aircraft
> aluminum would be nifty! That would allow whacking and poking both.

I don't know why no one has done that- good solid aluminum with those bar
joints that detent automatically- release when twisted a bit.
Or an ice ax with a slightly longer handle.

Chas




26 Feb 2005 00:58:41
Corey
Re: Saps, blackjacks, and batons


<usenet@thomas-galvin.com > wrote in message
news:1109354819.062163.290860@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> >From the "the fact that he's better than me doesn't mean I have to
> loose" files, I've been thinking about picking up something blunt to
> compliment my something sharp, just in case I'm dealing with a
> situation that is more than hands, but less than cutting. Any opinions
> as to what is the best tool in terms of concealability, non-lethality,
> and legality?

Corey says-

You usually won't have enough time to get to your weapon. Today a Wacko
tried to assault me on the way to my car. He startled me and I just had
enough time to get an arm up for the block. He decided not to attack. He
then walked around me talking to himself like an insane frustrated pumped up
jack ass. I looked at him like he was nuts and then just walked to my car.

If you have time, use pepper spray. If they have a weapon use a gun. end.

> I seem to remember that a sap is made of buckshot, and tends to knock a
> guy out, whereas a blackjack is made of lead, and tends to knock pieces
> of the skull out, but my memories are faint. Also, how do you guys
> feel about battons? Collapsable? Automatic?
>




26 Feb 2005 00:32:46
Ken Vale
Re: Saps, blackjacks, and batons

Rikki-Tikki-Weasel-not-a-Badger wrote:
> Badger_South wrote:
>
>
>>Though they're fun and often readily available, things like saps,
>
> double
>
>>edged blades, sword-canes, switchblades, stun-guns, metal batons and
>
> the
>
>>like are probably overkill. Most people would say if you're going to
>
> need
>
>>deadly force, get a CCW and a gun; heck there's probably more
>
> negativity
>
>>towards someone with one of these weapons than a gun in most places.
>
>
> Stun-guns? I'm not so sure about them. Generally they're reguarded as
> "less than lethal" solutions akin to Pepper Spray.
>
> Any particular reason you includes stun-guns on the list?
>
> Peace favor your sword (IH),
> Kirk
>

Well there have been some instances of fatalities reported here in
Canada resulting from police use. Now mind you in the one case the
person had a heart condition and in the other the person had ODed on
some drug concoction. While this does not make a taser a lethal weapon
it does suggest that they can kill in the right circumstances. While
this is not a cite for those two cases it does mention 74 deaths caused
by tasers (http://www.wtol.com/Global/story.asp?S=2999773).I guess any
weapon under the right conditions will cause death (imagine having a
dead allergy to pepper...).
Ken


26 Feb 2005 05:53:07
Jason Haynes
Re: Saps, blackjacks, and batons


"Pierre Honeyman" <phoneyman@telus.net > wrote in message
news:1109358998.743160.126830@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> Rabid_Weasel_Wishes_he_were_a_badger wrote:
>> Pierre Honeyman wrote:
>> > Rikki-Tikki-Weasel-not-a-Badger wrote:
>> >
>> > > Canes are better.
>> >
>> > Better for what?
>>
>> For the stated purpose of being a Legal, Concealable, and to be able
> to
>> have thier force mitigated by the user, as the poster requested.
>>school boy
>> :-(
>
> I think you're biased towards the "legal" term in that phrase :)
>
>> Plus, on top of that, canes have identical mechanics
>baby
> That depends a *lot* on the cane doesn't it?
>
>> and superior reach
>> then the colapsables.
>
> That they do.
>
>> By almost any definition a cane is a superior weapon to a collapsable
>> baton.
>school boy
> If that definition includes "legal" :)
>
>> The only thing those batons have going for them is that you can
>> squash 'em down to about 1/3 their extended length.
>
> For the purposes of concealability.
>
> For a concealable blunt weapon that hits hard and can be mitigated, I
> prefer the sap family.
>
> For a concealable blunt weapon that you really don't want anyone to
> see, collapsible batons are pretty good.
>
> For a walking around weapon that has some advantages over both of the
> above, a cane is very good. But you have to be ok with walking around
> with a cane

Yawn
>
> Pierre (IH)

zzz............zz........azzzzz
zzz....zzzzz...........azzz
zz





26 Feb 2005 13:56:33
T
Re: Saps, blackjacks, and batons

usenet@thomas-galvin.com wrote:

>>From the "the fact that he's better than me doesn't mean I have to
> loose" files, I've been thinking about picking up something blunt to
> compliment my something sharp, just in case I'm dealing with a
> situation that is more than hands, but less than cutting. Any opinions
> as to what is the best tool in terms of concealability, non-lethality,
> and legality?

www.naaminis.com/380.html


26 Feb 2005 15:02:00
Robert Low
Re: Saps, blackjacks, and batons

T wrote:
> usenet@thomas-galvin.com wrote:
Any opinions
>> as to what is the best tool in terms of concealability, non-lethality,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> and legality?
> www.naaminis.com/380.html

So when you pull the trigger, out comes a flag with 'Bang!'
written on it?

--
Rob


26 Feb 2005 15:24:47
T
Re: Saps, blackjacks, and batons

Robert Low wrote:
> T wrote:
>
>> usenet@thomas-galvin.com wrote:
>
> Any opinions
>
>>> as to what is the best tool in terms of concealability, non-lethality,
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>> and legality?
>>
>> www.naaminis.com/380.html
>
> So when you pull the trigger, out comes a flag with 'Bang!'
> written on it?
>
> --
> Rob


No.

Really, if you want to maximize concealability, non-lethality, and
legality, carry nothing.

If you want something effective, consider technology; we've been able to
do better than a stick - pardon, cane - since the Stone Age.

Pointing a gun at someone and thumbing the hammer back is non-lethal.
What happens next is partly determined by their reaction.

Assuming that optimum non-lethality is maximum non-lethality is
unwarranted, I think.


28 Feb 2005 09:51:41
Rikki-Tikki-Weasel-not-a-Badge
Re: Saps, blackjacks, and batons


Ken Vale wrote:
> Rikki-Tikki-Weasel-not-a-Badger wrote:
> > Generally they're reguarded as
> > "less than lethal" solutions akin to Pepper Spray.
> >
> > Any particular reason you includes stun-guns on the list?
> >
> > Peace favor your sword (IH),
> > Kirk
> >
>
> Well there have been some instances of fatalities reported here in
> Canada resulting from police use. Now mind you in the one case the
> person had a heart condition and in the other the person had ODed on
> some drug concoction. While this does not make a taser a lethal weapon
> it does suggest that they can kill in the right circumstances. While
> this is not a cite for those two cases it does mention 74 deaths caused

> by tasers (http://www.wtol.com/Global/story.asp?S=2999773).I guess any

> weapon under the right conditions will cause death (imagine having a
> dead allergy to pepper...).
> Ken

Sure. Same here.

Peace



28 Feb 2005 09:52:54
Rikki-Tikki-Weasel-not-a-Badge
Re: Saps, blackjacks, and batons

Badger_South wrote:

> Gee, maybe it is legal to use a stun-gun to defend
yourself...googling...
>
> OK, only illegal in:
> District of Columbia
> Hawaii
> Massachusetts
> Michigan
> New Jersey
> New York
> Rhode Island
> Wisconsin
> Baltimore
> Philadelphia
> New York City
> Howard County, MD
>
> Might depend on your local prosecutor. I'd check with local authorities
> before getting one...might be legal with restrictions on type or
voltage.
>
> Here's a random page:
http://www.actionstunguns.com/restrictionsandlaws.htm

OK. Fair enough. Something like 10%-ish of the U.S.

Probably all of England too.

Peace favor your sword (IH),
Kirk



28 Feb 2005 09:39:01
Badger North
Re: Saps, blackjacks, and batons

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 16:00:32 -0500, Badger North
<young_forest@REEEMOVEhotmail.com > wrote:

>That is definitely the last time I eat chocolate-covered almonds while
>reading RMA!
>
>(anybody know how to dislodge one 'a those things from a sinus
>cavity?)

Emergency is over folks - standing on my head managed to get it to
roll back into my skull, and then I shook my head until it dropped out
of my ear.

Badger Jones
www.youngforest.ca


28 Feb 2005 06:58:38
Sugar Weasel Lawson
Re: Saps, blackjacks, and batons

Badger_South wrote:

> >Yeah. I don't agree with half of what he says but it's generally a
> >thought provoking read at least.
>
> True. I like it for the gear reviews.

I'm in the process of getting "burned" by the XM2 flashlight guy. He's
had my money for over 3 months now and first send me the wrong product,
then after I shipped that back to him he shipped me a defective XM2. A
month ago he was supposed to have shipped out an XM2 that he personally
tested good. Since then he's not responding to my e-mails.

Maybe he's just out of town or something. :-(



> He's pretty polarized on some topics and still hangs on to some
out-moded
> fighting, but he often gives both sides equal time. (see archives:
> http://www.themartialist.com/archives.htm)
>
> -B

Yeah. His articles on the potential threats of the Homeless were
kinda... out there.

Peace favor your sword (IH),
Kirk



28 Feb 2005 07:07:22
Re: Saps, blackjacks, and batons

> Hi Thomas-galvin,
> Lots of choices at: http://warriorschest.com/pals.htm
> I'm sure Chas will be happy to explain the nuances.
> Steve

Thanks. I've actually picked up a couple of your videos in the past.
Good stuff. Have you guys ever though of doing a "campfire stories"
series, or something similar? I've read enough from you and Chas to
know you've got enough material to fill a few disks.



28 Feb 2005 07:12:44
Re: Saps, blackjacks, and batons

Thanks for all the replies thus far. Sorry I'm so late in getting
back to this, but Google was tossing server errors all weekend, and I
assumed that was a portent of the End of Days.

Some more information, which I should have posted in the first place:

I currently hail from the Soviet Republic of New York, which is why
legality is of a prime concern to me. Tasers are out, and getting a
concealed carry would be a small wonder. Looking around a bit, it also
seems that saps and black jacks are verboten, which I should have
guessed.

My extra-curricular activities tend to put my in close relation to a
lot of interesting people. Drug addicts, people with mental disorders,
former convicts, and the like. For the most part, this isn't a
problem. I'm 6'4'', 200+ pounds, and remember enough Judo to 'gently
render someone unconscious,' to borrow a phrase.

The problem is, Judo was some time ago, before a shoulder injury, and
my skills are rusty at best. I'm getting back into the game, and I've
got some good people to work with, but I'm also wise enough to admit
how far I have to go.

And some of the people I deal with would pose a definite problem.
There are a couple of guys in particular that have histories of
violence, criminal records, and skills that flat out beat mine. On top
of that, I also work with a number of women, and I feel, rightly or
not, responsible for their safety. I've been beaten up before, and I
imagine I will again, but the thought of something happening to them...
does unpleasant things to my psyche.

So, I'm looking at a situation in which a lethal response is
unjustified, but in which an unarmed response will be wholly
inadequate. I can't submit them, and I can't cut them.

Rikki-Tikki-Weasel-not-a-Badger wrote:
> A cane.
> Nothing else approaches it in terms of legality and concealability in
the modern context.

I actually used to carry a cane. It broke, and I'm currently looking
into replacements.

In large part, I agree with your assessment. Good reach, good
durability, generally speaking, and it just feels right.

Some problems do arise, however. The first is that I'm only 24, and it
looks somewhat odd when I suddenly start hobbling around with a piece
of wood, convincing limp or no. The second is that a lot of the people
I associate with would know exactly why I was carrying it, and some
have even seen me use one as a deterrent. That might actually act as a
deterrent in and of itself, but I'm fond of taking guys by surprise,
which is why I was considering moving to a collapsible baton or sap.

> Nah. Actually, I've got bias towards "concealable" but admit that I'm
using a liberal understanding of the term. When I say concealable I
include the "hidden in plain sight" understanding. That's the way it is
with a cane.

I generally agree with this, but, as I said above, if I were to start
carrying one, a good number of people would be thinking something along
the lines of "that sure is a nice cherry wood weapon you've got there,"
or "is that a weapon in your hands, or are you just happy to see
someone you can bludgeon?"

Corey wrote:
> You usually won't have enough time to get to your weapon. Today a
Wacko tried to assault me on the way to my car. He startled me and I
just had enough time to get an arm up for the block. He decided not to
attack. He then walked around me talking to himself like an insane
frustrated pumped up jack ass. I looked at him like he was nuts and
then just walked to my car.

In the scenario I'm most concerned about, there will almost certainly
be a lead-up to any altercation. I'm not worried about a bar fight; I
have a pretty good bead on the people I work with, and I know when they
are on edge. At the very least, "hey, Joe's in the same room as I am"
will give me time to palm something.

> If you have time, use pepper spray. If they have a weapon use a gun.
end.

I'll have to check on the pepper spray. Last I heard, it was still
legal in my great state. A gun isn't a realistic option in these
parts, but if they have a weapon, my response will be administered by
Mr. Sharp'N'Pointy.

T wrote:
> Pointing a gun at someone and thumbing the hammer back is non-lethal.

It also virtually assures that I will find myself on the wrong side of
a set of iron bars. Assuming, that is, that I cold acquire the
paperwork to carry in the first place, which is debatable. Also, I
don't like guns in a crowd.

And, it might just be my personality, but I'm not really the type to
just wave a weapon around. If it comes time to involve a weapon, I'd
prefer that you not know I have it.



28 Feb 2005 10:41:46
Rikki-Tikki-Weasel-not-a-Badge
Re: Saps, blackjacks, and batons

usenet@thomas-galvin.com wrote:

> Rikki-Tikki-Weasel-not-a-Badger wrote:
> > A cane.
> > Nothing else approaches it in terms of legality and concealability in
> > the modern context.
>
> I actually used to carry a cane. It broke, and I'm currently looking
> into replacements.
>
> In large part, I agree with your assessment. Good reach, good
> durability, generally speaking, and it just feels right.
>
> Some problems do arise, however. The first is that I'm only 24, and it
> looks somewhat odd when I suddenly start hobbling around with a piece
> of wood, convincing limp or no. The second is that a lot of the people
> I associate with would know exactly why I was carrying it, and some
> have even seen me use one as a deterrent. That might actually act as a
> deterrent in and of itself, but I'm fond of taking guys by surprise,
> which is why I was considering moving to a collapsible baton or sap.

Cary the cane anyway. Those who know will know.

Add to that Badger-South's tactical-flashlight. You don't have to tell
*anyone* about that. They're concealable and legal. They can dazzel the
sight of an offender pretty easy too.


> > Nah. Actually, I've got bias towards "concealable" but admit that I'm
> > using a liberal understanding of the term. When I say concealable I
> > include the "hidden in plain sight" understanding. That's the way it
is
> > with a cane.
>
> I generally agree with this, but, as I said above, if I were to start
> carrying one, a good number of people would be thinking something along
> the lines of "that sure is a nice cherry wood weapon you've got there,"
> or "is that a weapon in your hands, or are you just happy to see
> someone you can bludgeon?"

Smile and tell them that you're pretentious.

It's what I do.

Peace favor your sword (IH),
Kirk



28 Feb 2005 08:55:54
Steve Gartin
Re: Saps, blackjacks, and batons

<usenet@thomas-galvin.com > wrote in message
news:1109603242.215442.112940@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>> Hi Thomas-galvin,
>> Lots of choices at: http://warriorschest.com/pals.htm
>> I'm sure Chas will be happy to explain the nuances.
>> Steve
>
> Thanks. I've actually picked up a couple of your videos in the past.
> Good stuff. Have you guys ever though of doing a "campfire stories"
> series, or something similar? I've read enough from you and Chas to
> know you've got enough material to fill a few disks.
>
Thanks! I appreciate that.

Hadn't thought about it . . . . but Sure, we could do that. I'm compiling a
DVD now of Uncle Bill's BS sessions for the DistanceLearning folks to get a
feel for Uncle. Chas is one storytelling dude . . . I've watched people at
shows and such just stand slackjawed listening to him ~ so you might be on
to something there.

We're planning to shoot a DVD in May chronicling the early days of Spyderco
and the CustomKnifeMaker/Production Factory collaboration, which will be
sort of a campfire story with show and tell from my Number One Collection
www.coloradocutlery.com

Heartless Monkey #5 is planned for the summer with a focus on the training
methods that we introduced in #2 in a more expanded format.

We're working on a PocketPal and KeepSafe DVD now that should be done
sometime in March and we're just in the planning stages of a Kerambit DVD.

Your opinions mean a lot to us, so we're always open to suggestion.

Thanks,

Steve
www.kuntaosilat.com
www.heartlessmonkey.com






28 Feb 2005 09:47:21
Chas
Re: Saps, blackjacks, and batons

"Rikki-Tikki-Weasel-not-a-Badger" <NO_lawson_SPAM_@dayton.net > wrote
>> Some problems do arise, however. The first is that I'm only 24, and it
>> looks somewhat odd when I suddenly start hobbling around with a piece
>> of wood, convincing limp or no.
> Cary the cane anyway. Those who know will know.

People generally don't want to talk about why you need to use a cane-
friends, family and so on excepted.
You don't need to carry a bludgeon- however, as big as you are, a 'pig-cane'
would be right in scale. Nobody thinks about them because they're so common.
A trip to a Feed store would give you a dozen to choose from.
The only time I've been bothered about carrying a cane was in a Federal
Courthouse. I had a nineteenth century bamboo cane- Japanese- they held it
while I went inside, gave it back afterwards. They would have taken
anything, and if you can't walk, seems they provide a wheelchair.
A tip is to glue on the crutch tip- they think that a removable tip makes it
a weapon somehow- urban myth probably, but it's not like you're going to
take it off for anything anyway.

Chas




28 Feb 2005 12:14:24
Rikki-Tikki-Weasel-not-a-Badge
Re: Saps, blackjacks, and batons


Chas wrote:
> "Rikki-Tikki-Weasel-not-a-Badger" <NO_lawson_SPAM_@dayton.net> wrote
> >> Some problems do arise, however. The first is that I'm only 24, and
it
> >> looks somewhat odd when I suddenly start hobbling around with a
piece
> >> of wood, convincing limp or no.
> > Cary the cane anyway. Those who know will know.
>
> People generally don't want to talk about why you need to use a cane-
> friends, family and so on excepted.

I've had people hold open doors for me even though it's obvious from my
gait that I'm not using it as an ambulatory aid. Never had someone offer
to skip me forward in line though Mark Shuey of "Cane Masters" claims it's
happened to him.

I have had people ask to look at my canes or strike up "woodworking" type
conversations. No one ever considers the fact that I just don't seem to
need one. One of my favorites has a brass door knob as the top. Kids
love to look at it and adults love to ask if I still have the key.

Cops have never given it a second glance, though I assume that most of 'em
are smart enough to know a weapon when the see it. I assume the fact that
I look generally non-threatening (usually in tie & slacks) means that I
don't set off their "look at that guy" radar.

When I first started carying a Gentlman's Walking Stick I got questions
from family and friends, "You pull up gimp?" I always answered that I was
just pretentions, or that it's a simple Gentleman's Walking Stick. My wife
tells people that "it's just decoration" (that seems to be better
understood then "pretentious") or that I think Walking Sticks are coming
back and she think's I'm a nut (this is actually very disarming - there's
something that sets people at ease about having a wife or close friend
share a nudge and a wink about hubbie's "Ecentricity").


> You don't need to carry a bludgeon- however, as big as you are, a
'pig-cane'
> would be right in scale. Nobody thinks about them because they're so
common.

I agree. Cary something either dirt common and plain or something nice
and attractive. Something that doesn't *look* like a weapon. Carying one
of Shuey's canes-of-death with the rambo-survival-hookfangs and laser
scribed "Combat Cane! (tm)" just seems counter-productive to me.


> A trip to a Feed store would give you a dozen to choose from.

Yeah, but you'll have to sand/strip & refinish them to get something that
doesn't look like you found it under a pile of sheep dung. Seems the Feed
stores are more interested in long term functionality that can wistand
using it to beat stock into submission on a snowy sleeting day whilest hip
deep in mud.

The finish is just plain nasty looking.


> The only time I've been bothered about carrying a cane was in a Federal

> Courthouse. I had a nineteenth century bamboo cane- Japanese- they held
it
> while I went inside, gave it back afterwards. They would have taken
> anything, and if you can't walk, seems they provide a wheelchair.

No one has ever bothered me about my Gentleman's Walking Stick. I've
taken a plain (unloaded) stick on Domestic flights with me, post 9/11 and
in to pay a parking ticket once.


> A tip is to glue on the crutch tip- they think that a removable tip
makes it
> a weapon somehow- urban myth probably, but it's not like you're going to

> take it off for anything anyway.

Everyone always recomends Crutch Tips. I generally buy heavy rubber chair
tips. $1.50 / 4-pack at Lowe's. Hasn't worn out yet.

Peace favor your sword (IH),
Kirk



28 Feb 2005 10:44:20
Chas
Re: Saps, blackjacks, and batons

"Rikki-Tikki-Weasel-not-a-Badger" <NO_lawson_SPAM_@dayton.net > wrote
> I agree. Cary something either dirt common and plain or something nice
> and attractive. Something that doesn't *look* like a weapon. Carying one
> of Shuey's canes-of-death with the rambo-survival-hookfangs and laser
> scribed "Combat Cane! (tm)" just seems counter-productive to me.

Interestingly, his canes are bent at a place that also does the pig-canes.
You'll notice that the big crook is the same.

> The finish is just plain nasty looking.

I just scraped mine down to the bare wood- that smoothed the wood as well as
removing the finish. It'll take dye well once you've got it to 'bare', and
then you can finish it with what you want- I did that beeswax thing.

> Everyone always recomends Crutch Tips. I generally buy heavy rubber chair
> tips. $1.50 / 4-pack at Lowe's. Hasn't worn out yet.

It depends on the stick. I've got cane tips, crutch tips and furniture leg
tips. I like carrying the cane tips best- very 'finished' looking, but hard
to find.

Chas




28 Feb 2005 19:15:26
Damion
Re: Saps, blackjacks, and batons

Anyone ever use the city stick from cold steel.com? it's a sword cane, but
even if you leave it closed, the sheath is supposed to be damn near
indestructible from a large number of fiberglass and resin layers.

I haven't used it, and don't think I'd carry it anyway, I like to have
things that i can put away. What i normally carry is a monadnock 26" camlock
baton. I have a 360 holster that i attach to a strap on the backpack i am
usually carrying or a duty belt. Hides right under the arm and if i need to
pull it i can get it same side or cross draw and practice my iai.

-Damion


"Chas" <chasclementsSPOOF@comcast.net > wrote in message
news:srCdnelF6sXpxb7fRVn-jw@comcast.com...
> "Rikki-Tikki-Weasel-not-a-Badger" <NO_lawson_SPAM_@dayton.net> wrote
> > I agree. Cary something either dirt common and plain or something nice
> > and attractive. Something that doesn't *look* like a weapon. Carying
one
> > of Shuey's canes-of-death with the rambo-survival-hookfangs and laser
> > scribed "Combat Cane! (tm)" just seems counter-productive to me.
>
> Interestingly, his canes are bent at a place that also does the pig-canes.
> You'll notice that the big crook is the same.
>
> > The finish is just plain nasty looking.
>
> I just scraped mine down to the bare wood- that smoothed the wood as well
as
> removing the finish. It'll take dye well once you've got it to 'bare', and
> then you can finish it with what you want- I did that beeswax thing.
>
> > Everyone always recomends Crutch Tips. I generally buy heavy rubber
chair
> > tips. $1.50 / 4-pack at Lowe's. Hasn't worn out yet.
>
> It depends on the stick. I've got cane tips, crutch tips and furniture leg
> tips. I like carrying the cane tips best- very 'finished' looking, but
hard
> to find.
>
> Chas
>
>




28 Feb 2005 13:32:28
Chas
Re: Saps, blackjacks, and batons

"Damion" <Damionbulk@yahoo.com > wrote
> Anyone ever use the city stick from cold steel.com?

I've got one of their regular knobbed wooden ones- I like it.
I had a girl paint it with a vine/flowers/sun face- put a 'Walking Liberty'
half-dollar on the finial. It looks really hippyish.

Chas




28 Feb 2005 12:43:30
Re: Saps, blackjacks, and batons

<insert badger reference here > wrote:
> Cops have never given it a second glance, though I assume that most
of 'em are smart enough to know a weapon when the see it. I assume the
fact that I look generally non-threatening (usually in tie & slacks)
means that I don't set off their "look at that guy" radar.

I've actually carried my hiking staff in the city on rare occasions. I
used to walk around the city late at night, and I'd wind my way up into
the park areas, with all the nice trees and hills. I tend to shy away
from that these days, though.

I'm generally in slacks-and-shirt mode myself, and that's generally how
I was dressed when I used to carry the cane. The rest of the time, I
generally just grabbed it out of the car because I didn't like the
place we were going, and at that point, it isn't all that big a loss if
people know I'm armed.

> (this is actually very disarming - there's something that sets people
at ease about having a wife or close friend share a nudge and a wink
about hubbie's "Ecentricity").

Note to self: get a girl.

> > You don't need to carry a bludgeon- however, as big as you are, a
'pig-cane' would be right in scale. Nobody thinks about them because
they're so common

> I agree. Cary something either dirt common and plain or something
nice and attractive. Something that doesn't *look* like a weapon.
Carying one of Shuey's canes-of-death with the rambo-survival-hookfangs
and laser scribed "Combat Cane! (tm)" just seems counter-productive to
me.

I might end up getting two; one for dress, and one that goes with the
jeans.

> No one has ever bothered me about my Gentleman's Walking Stick. I've
taken a plain (unloaded) stick on Domestic flights with me, post 9/11
and in to pay a parking ticket once.

Did this one have a metal doodad on the end of it? I'm heading to
Mexico in a couple of months... might as well plan ahead.



28 Feb 2005 12:47:32
Re: Saps, blackjacks, and batons

Damion wrote:
> Anyone ever use the city stick from cold steel.com? it's a sword
cane, but even if you leave it closed, the sheath is supposed to be
damn near indestructible from a large number of fiberglass and resin
layers.

Sword canes are pretty much out of the question. I've already got my
sharp... I'm looking for something a little less... final. Also, I'm
allergic to jail cells.

> I haven't used it, and don't think I'd carry it anyway, I like to
have things that i can put away. What i normally carry is a monadnock
26" camlock baton. I have a 360 holster that i attach to a strap on the
backpack i am usually carrying or a duty belt. Hides right under the
arm and if i need to pull it i can get it same side or cross draw and
practice my iai.

Good if one is weaping a jacket. It'd probably fit in my briefcase
just fine, too. I suppose there really isn't a one-size-fits-all
answer for an easily concealed weapon.



28 Feb 2005 13:01:33
Re: Saps, blackjacks, and batons

> You don't need to carry a bludgeon- however, as big as you are, a
'pig-cane' would be right in scale. Nobody thinks about them because
they're so common.
> A trip to a Feed store would give you a dozen to choose from.

I'm in a more urban area than you are, so I would have to lean towards
something more finished. I saw one that was made out of ironwood,
nicly polished, good, solid weight, but it didn't look like anything
unusual until you picked it up. I'll have to see if I can find out
where that came from.

> The only time I've been bothered about carrying a cane was in a
Federal Courthouse. I had a nineteenth century bamboo cane- Japanese-
they held it while I went inside, gave it back afterwards. They would
have taken anything, and if you can't walk, seems they provide a
wheelchair.

That's interesting. These things are kind of hit or miss, though they
are tending more towards paranoia these days. I've been allowed into
courthouses with my knife on occasion, but those days are pretty much
done with.

Thanks for the reply.



28 Feb 2005 16:14:02
Rikki-Tikki-Weasel-not-a-Badge
Re: Saps, blackjacks, and batons

use...@thomas-galvin.com wrote:

> > No one has ever bothered me about my Gentleman's Walking Stick. I've
> > taken a plain (unloaded) stick on Domestic flights with me, post 9/11
> > and in to pay a parking ticket once.
>
> Did this one have a metal doodad on the end of it? I'm heading to
> Mexico in a couple of months... might as well plan ahead.

No. This is a fairly plain Gentleman's Walking Stick. Knobbed. Made
from a Maple branch cut at the Y joint so that the larger branch becomes
the knob.

The knob is rounded and sanded smooth at both cuts and the rest of the
stick is finished, bark-on, with a high-gloss floor grade poly. This
gives it a high-class-but-rustic look.

It was traditional for the Irish (and likely many others) to "load" a cane
but hollowing out the knob end and pouring lead into the cavity. This cane
is not loaded though I do have an Ash Root knobbed walking stick that is.
Though, again, generally unnoticed, loading a stick will tend to make it
more of a weapon and less of an article of decoration to the authorities.
But it also seriously increases the wallup!

Peace favor your sword (IH),
Kirk



28 Feb 2005 13:17:03
Pierre Honeyman
Re: Saps, blackjacks, and batons


Chas wrote:
> "Damion" <Damionbulk@yahoo.com> wrote
> > Anyone ever use the city stick from cold steel.com?
>
> I've got one of their regular knobbed wooden ones- I like it.
> I had a girl paint it with a vine/flowers/sun face-

All kinds of visions of the sun shining out some bad guy's ass here...

Pierre (IH)



28 Feb 2005 21:26:52
Re: Saps, blackjacks, and Dildos

>I suggest a compromise. Maybe "Sugar Weasel", or possibly "Rabid
Sugar
>Daddy".



Ow! You bastard!

That is definitely the last time I eat chocolate-covered almonds while
reading RMA!


(anybody know how to dislodge one 'a those things from a sinus
cavity?)


Badger Jones
www.youngforest.ca




You can eat my balls Badgert Darling..... :o

Marko Wang



01 Mar 2005 13:39:11
Fraser Johnston
Re: Saps, blackjacks, and Dildos


<raydog33@lycos.com > wrote in message
news:1109654812.573770.248920@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

> You can eat my balls Badgert Darling..... :o

He wants a meal. Not a snack.

Fraser




28 Feb 2005 21:51:18
Re: Saps, blackjacks, and Dildos

> You can eat my balls Badgert Darling..... :o


He wants a meal. Not a snack.

Fraser


Been feeling up any Yellow Bambooers lately? Fraz?
Do you ware those cute spandex shorts when you grapple?
They really accentuate your man tits!
You Brazil Jujitsu boys are such prick teasers.

Marko. =P



01 Mar 2005 13:59:45
Fraser Johnston
Re: Saps, blackjacks, and Dildos


<raydog33@lycos.com > wrote in message
news:1109656278.962438.206200@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...

> Been feeling up any Yellow Bambooers lately? Fraz?

Nah your mum keeps me plenty busy.

> Do you ware those cute spandex shorts when you grapple?

I'm yet to find a pair that will fit my package.

> They really accentuate your man tits!

Thank you. I've been working out.

> You Brazil Jujitsu boys are such prick teasers.

Not really. Your mother gets it every time she asks. And she asks a lot.
I have to admit I keep knocking your dad back.

Fraser




28 Feb 2005 22:17:33
Re: Saps, blackjacks, and Dildos

Thank you. I've been working out.


> You Brazil Jujitsu boys are such prick teasers.


Not really. Your mother gets it every time she asks. And she asks a
lot.
I have to admit I keep knocking your dad back.

Fraser


What? You dug up my poor mother's corpse and fucked it! You Brazil
Jujitsu people are really sick.
Did you whack her with the shovel a few times after you had your
disgusting pleasure with her.
She was pretty obese when she was alive, but I sure she must look a lot
thinner now!
You know she died of SARS but I'm sure it doesn't linger in dead
bodies that have been in the ground for two years.

Marko.



01 Mar 2005 14:26:40
Fraser Johnston
Re: Saps, blackjacks, and Dildos


<raydog33@lycos.com > wrote in message
news:1109657853.816553.265910@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...

> What? You dug up my poor mother's corpse and fucked it! You Brazil
> Jujitsu people are really sick.
> Did you whack her with the shovel a few times after you had your
> disgusting pleasure with her.
> She was pretty obese when she was alive, but I sure she must look a lot
> thinner now!
> You know she died of SARS but I'm sure it doesn't linger in dead
> bodies that have been in the ground for two years.
>

That explains why she was such a dead root. I thought she was just lazy and
had bad BO.

Fraser




28 Feb 2005 22:39:13
Re: Saps, blackjacks, and Dildos

Ewwwwww. Enough Necro fantasies! It's bad enough I have to look at
GDS'es mug on those Yb Vids and listen to your depravities while I'm
eating.
By the way! How is Peter? Still Ugly I see !

Marko Wang.



01 Mar 2005 14:45:11
Fraser Johnston
Re: Saps, blackjacks, and Dildos


<raydog33@lycos.com > wrote in message
news:1109659153.342341.297120@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Ewwwwww. Enough Necro fantasies! It's bad enough I have to look at
> GDS'es mug on those Yb Vids and listen to your depravities while I'm
> eating.
> By the way! How is Peter? Still Ugly I see !
>

I'll peel him off your mother and ask him.

Fraser




28 Feb 2005 22:54:55
Re: Saps, blackjacks, and Dildos

There can't be much left of her by now! Are you guys down to using
one eye socket each? No! What is it I'm thinking you Brazil boys
always like to work in stereo or is it AC/DC? I don't know! What ever
it is it's depraved.

Fill the hold when you're done.

Marko.



01 Mar 2005 15:01:50
Fraser Johnston
Re: Saps, blackjacks, and Dildos


<raydog33@lycos.com > wrote in message
news:1109660095.671387.25510@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> There can't be much left of her by now! Are you guys down to using
> one eye socket each? No! What is it I'm thinking you Brazil boys
> always like to work in stereo or is it AC/DC? I don't know! What ever
> it is it's depraved.
>
> Fill the hold when you're done.
>

Where would you like the bits posted to.

Fraser




28 Feb 2005 23:48:53
Re: Saps, blackjacks, and Dildos

O Fraser! Yeah! Your that Harry Potter looking bastard. Now I remember
you!

You do JuiJitsu do U?

Marko.



01 Mar 2005 16:13:37
Fraser Johnston
Re: Saps, blackjacks, and Dildos


<raydog33@lycos.com > wrote in message
news:1109663333.175376.254990@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>O Fraser! Yeah! Your that Harry Potter looking bastard. Now I remember
> you!
>
> You do JuiJitsu do U?
>

Been writing Dr Suess books long?

Fraser




01 Mar 2005 22:33:12
Geoff Rogers
Re: Saps, blackjacks, and batons

"Rikki-Tikki-Weasel-not-a-Badger" <NO_lawson_SPAM_@dayton.net > wrote in
message
news:79d786d98367cf510117550afb5d5a42@localhost.talkaboutsportsnetwork.com...
> Smile and tell them that you're pretentious.
>
> It's what I do.

Pretty much what I used to do too.

Funny thing was, it came in damned handy when I *did* fuck my ankle up and
needed a walking aid for a few days.

*Sigh* I really need to get pretentious again... that was fun.
--
Geoff Rogers

>
> Peace favor your sword (IH),
> Kirk
>




01 Mar 2005 07:34:33
I can't believe it's not a Bad
Re: Saps, blackjacks, and batons


Geoff Rogers wrote:
> "Rikki-Tikki-Weasel-not-a-Badger" <NO_lawson_SPAM_@dayton.net> wrote
in
> message
>
news:79d786d98367cf510117550afb5d5a42@localhost.talkaboutsportsnetwork.com...
> > Smile and tell them that you're pretentious.
> >
> > It's what I do.
>
> Pretty much what I used to do too.
>
> Funny thing was, it came in damned handy when I *did* fuck my ankle
up and
> needed a walking aid for a few days.

Had the same thing when I busted a toe. You wouldn't think that a toe
could cause that much problems walking but it does.


> *Sigh* I really need to get pretentious again... that was fun.

Yup. :-)

peace favor your sword (IH),
Kirk



02 Mar 2005 11:36:22
Badger North
Re: Saps, blackjacks, and Dildos

On 28 Feb 2005 21:26:52 -0800, raydog33@lycos.com wrote:

>You can eat my balls Badgert Darling..... :o
>
>Marko Wang

Thanks for the offer there, Marko, but you'll have to get your dates
down by the pier like you normally would.

Badger Jones
www.youngforest.ca