14 Jun 2006 21:33:23
David L. Burkhead
Tai Otoshi

(What do you know? An actual question on MA technique.)

Back when I was doing Judo before, I was working pretty hard on my Tai
Otoshi (body drop). Since my return, I've continued working on it.

Lately, I've noticed that I feel like I'm getting "jammed up" when I try to
complete the throw and that leads me to wonder if maybe I'm trying to come
in too deep. After all, it's classed as a hand technique rather than leg or
hip. Can somebody familiar with the throw try to describe how deep you come
in (or let your opponenet come to you if he's the one moving)?

David L. Burkhead




14 Jun 2006 20:07:43
Neil Gendzwill
Re: Tai Otoshi

David L. Burkhead wrote:
> (What do you know? An actual question on MA technique.)
>
> Back when I was doing Judo before, I was working pretty hard on my Tai
> Otoshi (body drop). Since my return, I've continued working on it.
>
> Lately, I've noticed that I feel like I'm getting "jammed up" when I try to
> complete the throw and that leads me to wonder if maybe I'm trying to come
> in too deep. After all, it's classed as a hand technique rather than leg or
> hip. Can somebody familiar with the throw try to describe how deep you come
> in (or let your opponenet come to you if he's the one moving)?

As I understand it, there should be no contact other than your
hands/arms and the one leg. I like to be close enough to use my right
forearm (for a right sided throw) but other than that keep the body well
clear. If you do it right, it's all arm motion and the body drop, the
leg just adds some extra snap. Or so it seems to me from my newbie
perspective.

Neil


14 Jun 2006 19:55:22
SPORTfighter
Re: Tai Otoshi


Neil Gendzwill wrote:
> David L. Burkhead wrote:
> > (What do you know? An actual question on MA technique.)
> >
> > Back when I was doing Judo before, I was working pretty hard on my Tai
> > Otoshi (body drop). Since my return, I've continued working on it.
> >
> > Lately, I've noticed that I feel like I'm getting "jammed up" when I try to
> > complete the throw and that leads me to wonder if maybe I'm trying to come
> > in too deep. After all, it's classed as a hand technique rather than leg or
> > hip. Can somebody familiar with the throw try to describe how deep you come
> > in (or let your opponenet come to you if he's the one moving)?
>
> As I understand it, there should be no contact other than your
> hands/arms and the one leg. I like to be close enough to use my right
> forearm (for a right sided throw) but other than that keep the body well
> clear. If you do it right, it's all arm motion and the body drop, the
> leg just adds some extra snap. Or so it seems to me from my newbie
> perspective.
>
> Neil


I always tried to get real close.Yes the snap down is all in the arms,
but it seems you can't tug him in if he's a step back.But it was never
really my thing so ignore me.
Gi
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2527746028152356520&q=bjj



14 Jun 2006 22:31:38
wwd
Re: Tai Otoshi


"SPORTfighter" <billamahoney@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1150340122.226366.281960@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> Neil Gendzwill wrote:
>> David L. Burkhead wrote:
>> > (What do you know? An actual question on MA technique.)
>> >
>> > Back when I was doing Judo before, I was working pretty hard on my Tai
>> > Otoshi (body drop). Since my return, I've continued working on it.
>> >
>> > Lately, I've noticed that I feel like I'm getting "jammed up" when I
>> > try to
>> > complete the throw and that leads me to wonder if maybe I'm trying to
>> > come
>> > in too deep. After all, it's classed as a hand technique rather than
>> > leg or
>> > hip. Can somebody familiar with the throw try to describe how deep you
>> > come
>> > in (or let your opponenet come to you if he's the one moving)?
>>
>> As I understand it, there should be no contact other than your
>> hands/arms and the one leg. I like to be close enough to use my right
>> forearm (for a right sided throw) but other than that keep the body well
>> clear. If you do it right, it's all arm motion and the body drop, the
>> leg just adds some extra snap. Or so it seems to me from my newbie
>> perspective.
>>
>> Neil
>
>
> I always tried to get real close.Yes the snap down is all in the arms,
> but it seems you can't tug him in if he's a step back.But it was never
> really my thing so ignore me.
> Gi
> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2527746028152356520&q=bjj
>

Close is good. If you're getting jammed up, the chances are you're
letting your hands get behind you ... your rear arm (the one with the
lapel grip) should be in front of your shoulder, (as if you're doing
a dumbell bench ... if it gets behind you lose all power and get
jammed). Some of this is timing, you have to catch the guy so
your turn keeps the lapel hand in front of you, basically turning
him with your legs and twisting torso. Its easy to see when
demonstrated, not sure how good the written explanation is though :(

As well, make sure your weight is fairly even on both legs. People
tend to have too much on their left leg (if doing a right handed
throw).




15 Jun 2006 03:12:27
Re: Tai Otoshi


David L. Burkhead wrote:
> (What do you know? An actual question on MA technique.)
>
> Back when I was doing Judo before, I was working pretty hard on my Tai
> Otoshi (body drop). Since my return, I've continued working on it.
>
> Lately, I've noticed that I feel like I'm getting "jammed up" when I try to
> complete the throw and that leads me to wonder if maybe I'm trying to come
> in too deep.

You have :). Where does it feel jammed up? Your shoulder?

> After all, it's classed as a hand technique rather than leg or
> hip.

It is

http://judoforum.com/index.php?showtopic=11654

> Can somebody familiar with the throw try to describe how deep you come
> in (or let your opponenet come to you if he's the one moving)?

Close, but not "rib to rib". You should be able to slide a tennis ball
between you. That kind of distance.

There shouldn't really be that much (if any) contact between your
bodies except at the hands and the blocking ankle and even then, it's
best not to "A Frame".

Its a tricky frikken throw. I'm seriously thinking of trying to develop
the no leg block version, because there's less chance for getting stuck



15 Jun 2006 04:14:20
Rich
Re: Tai Otoshi


David L. Burkhead wrote:
> (What do you know? An actual question on MA technique.)
>
> Back when I was doing Judo before, I was working pretty hard on my Tai
> Otoshi (body drop). Since my return, I've continued working on it.
>
> Lately, I've noticed that I feel like I'm getting "jammed up" when I try to
> complete the throw and that leads me to wonder if maybe I'm trying to come
> in too deep. After all, it's classed as a hand technique rather than leg or
> hip. Can somebody familiar with the throw try to describe how deep you come
> in (or let your opponenet come to you if he's the one moving)?

Not deep, you don't have to 'bump' him like many throws.

The single best tip I got for tai otoshi is that you should listen to
him land, not watch him. :) Basically, if he's going over your right
leg, you should end with your right ear pointing to him on the ground,
not your face. It sounds daft, but it just addds a bit of extra twist.

I mostly use tai otoshi as a follow-up from osoto gare. What sort of
set-ups do you use?

Cheers
Rich



15 Jun 2006 10:31:01
Re: Tai Otoshi


Rich wrote:
> David L. Burkhead wrote:
> > (What do you know? An actual question on MA technique.)
> >
> > Back when I was doing Judo before, I was working pretty hard on my Tai
> > Otoshi (body drop). Since my return, I've continued working on it.
> >
> > Lately, I've noticed that I feel like I'm getting "jammed up" when I try to
> > complete the throw and that leads me to wonder if maybe I'm trying to come
> > in too deep. After all, it's classed as a hand technique rather than leg or
> > hip. Can somebody familiar with the throw try to describe how deep you come
> > in (or let your opponenet come to you if he's the one moving)?
>
> Not deep, you don't have to 'bump' him like many throws.
>
> The single best tip I got for tai otoshi is that you should listen to
> him land, not watch him. :) Basically, if he's going over your right
> leg, you should end with your right ear pointing to him on the ground,
> not your face. It sounds daft, but it just addds a bit of extra twist.
>
> I mostly use tai otoshi as a follow-up from osoto gare. What sort of
> set-ups do you use?
>
> Cheers
> Rich

We practice this a lot and I have received some excellent instruction
on it from some senseis who have succesfully used it in international
competition. One of the small technicalities which is very often
overlooked is the need to get a little bit under your opponent.
Specifically (if throwing right) when you step back with your left
foot, your arms (especially left) should be pulling upwards to ensure
your opponent is on his toes. The left arm needs to stay as high as
possible until the execution of the "drop". Make sure your hips are not
in the way of your opponents hips (ie. that you're not too far to the
right), then drop both arms down towards your left knee as you twist
your upper body to the left. If done correctly, you do not need contact
on the right leg. If there is contact, you can "knock out" your
opponent's right leg with your own by straightening it quickly...

Clear as mud??

E



19 Jun 2006 06:27:49
Re: Tai Otoshi


David L. Burkhead wrote:
> (What do you know? An actual question on MA technique.)
>
> Back when I was doing Judo before, I was working pretty hard on my Tai
> Otoshi (body drop). Since my return, I've continued working on it.
>
> Lately, I've noticed that I feel like I'm getting "jammed up" when I try to
> complete the throw and that leads me to wonder if maybe I'm trying to come
> in too deep. After all, it's classed as a hand technique rather than leg or
> hip. Can somebody familiar with the throw try to describe how deep you come
> in (or let your opponenet come to you if he's the one moving)?
>
> David L. Burkhead

Get hold of Leggett and Watanabe's book on the subject "Championship
Judo - Taiotoshi and Ouchigari Attacks". Pay particular attention to
the bit that says (quote from memory) "Taiotoshi as it is commonly
taught is not fit for paractical use"



19 Jun 2006 18:23:29
Ben Holmes
Re: Tai Otoshi

In article <1150723669.519575.299170@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com >,
Mike.Ozanne@ntlworld.com says...
>
>
>David L. Burkhead wrote:
>> (What do you know? An actual question on MA technique.)
>>
>> Back when I was doing Judo before, I was working pretty hard on my Tai
>> Otoshi (body drop). Since my return, I've continued working on it.
>>
>> Lately, I've noticed that I feel like I'm getting "jammed up" when I try to
>> complete the throw and that leads me to wonder if maybe I'm trying to come
>> in too deep. After all, it's classed as a hand technique rather than leg or
>> hip. Can somebody familiar with the throw try to describe how deep you come
>> in (or let your opponenet come to you if he's the one moving)?
>>
>> David L. Burkhead
>
>Get hold of Leggett and Watanabe's book on the subject "Championship
>Judo - Taiotoshi and Ouchigari Attacks". Pay particular attention to
>the bit that says (quote from memory) "Taiotoshi as it is commonly
>taught is not fit for paractical use"

A trick I use... when your Taiotoshi is slipping, start doing uchikomi with
"wrong-leg" Taiotoshi... ie: attack the *wrong* leg. If your hands and body
movement are proper, you'll throw uke... if not, you won't. It brings you back
to what Taiotoshi fundamentally is.

Although some like it as uke is stepping forward, I like to catch a right-sided
Taiotoshi when uke has his right foot *back*. I give a slight push, then zip in
to throw to the right *diagonal corner*. Common mistake, I think, is trying to
force Taiotoshi in the same direction as your Seoinage... just my two cents
worth...



20 Jun 2006 02:59:47
Robert Low
Re: Tai Otoshi


SPORTfighter wrote:
> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2527746028152356520&q=bjj

So was that a win or a DQ?



27 Jun 2006 03:20:38
BTW@
Re: Tai Otoshi

Mike.Ozanne@ntlworld.com wrote:
> [sip]
>
> Get hold of Leggett and Watanabe's book on the subject "Championship
> Judo - Taiotoshi and Ouchigari Attacks". Pay particular attention to
> the bit that says (quote from memory) "Taiotoshi as it is commonly
> taught is not fit for paractical use"

Or the author is saying the form of taiotoshi in which tori and uke end
up pretty much standing facing the same direction, and tori throwing uke
to the front, is not as practical as entering at an angle and throw uke
to his/her right front corner (in a right-side taiotoshi situation)?

Great book anyhow. It's old, but one of a kind. A book on Judo movement
rather than techniques. Haven't found another one like that.