04 Nov 2005 14:21:57
Badger_S
Vital point - outer thigh

I remember when my second instructor first showed me the 'vital point' (or
'bi-tal point' as he'd say in his charming pidgin-English) along the side
of the thigh. Normally in TKD sparring you didn't kick the legs, at least
not in those days. It was strictly hands and feet off. ;-D

We were standing around after class and he walked over and shin kicked me
in the left outer thigh.

After I stopped crying...ok, well at least tears in the eyes from the
emotional impact that my sensei would 'king me' as he called it, had
dispersed, I asked him about it. He didn't seem to know exactly why it hurt
besides 'nerbe next to bone'.

That line along the outer part of the leg roughly parallels the 'Tensor
Fasciae Latae' muscle.

http://www.exrx.net/Muscles/TensorFasciaeLatae.html

In my case that day, since I was doing a lot of kicking and jogging and
starting to ramp up my weight training, the muscle was sore from use. I
didn't have a sense that it hurt merely from being a vital point. If this
gets sore as it sometimes does people advocate leaining stretches.

Sometimes, if you search it for trigger points you can often find them and
when you press it you can feel a rather quick sensation of muscular
relaxation. To do it, when seated, take your same-side hand and wrap the
fingers under the edge of your quad muscle and dig them in, feeling for the
spot(s) that hurt. Then press on those spots with your thumb on top of the
thigh, as though you're gripping the rim of the muscle and in a few seconds
you'll get a release of the muscular tension. (or at least I do).

Just wondering if others have the same trigger points, if the reason it's a
'vital' point is due to the characteristic tension and DOMS that occurs in
a heavily used muscle, or if there's some underlying nerve structure.

I find if I have massaged that muscle and/or released the trigger points a
shin kick there is nowhere near as debilitating. I do a lot of pounding and
pressing over that area on both legs when I'm working out trigger points at
the end fo the day lying in bed.

Just wondered if others worked on this part of the leg - conditioning or
anything. Seems to hurt more if I'm doing heavy lifting - slight amount of
DOMS maybe even after getting used to it.

-B



04 Nov 2005 12:57:39
Pierre Honeyman
Re: Vital point - outer thigh


Badger_S wrote:


> Just wondered if others worked on this part of the leg - conditioning or
> anything. Seems to hurt more if I'm doing heavy lifting - slight amount of
> DOMS maybe even after getting used to it.

I work my legs constantly, in terms of finding trigger points and
trying to release them. On my right side my hands are not strong
enough - not nearly. So I actually use my slung shot - 2lb lead
cannonball weight wrapped in rope - to get enough penetration. Most of
the time I don't get a release, but when I do, boy-howdy, it rocks.

I don't know how much of a vital point that point was, the one you
referred to in your opening 'graf. It could just be that you were
unused to being kicked there. Fuck, being kicked in the legs the first
time just *hurts*.

Pierre



04 Nov 2005 22:34:54
Lascivious Mink
Re: Vital point - outer thigh

Badger_S wrote:

> I remember when my second instructor first showed me the 'vital point' (or
> 'bi-tal point' as he'd say in his charming pidgin-English) along the side
> of the thigh. Normally in TKD sparring you didn't kick the legs, at least
> not in those days. It was strictly hands and feet off. ;-D
>
> We were standing around after class and he walked over and shin kicked me
> in the left outer thigh.
>
> After I stopped crying...ok, well at least tears in the eyes from the
> emotional impact that my sensei would 'king me' as he called it, had
> dispersed, I asked him about it. He didn't seem to know exactly why it hurt
> besides 'nerbe next to bone'.
>
> That line along the outer part of the leg roughly parallels the 'Tensor
> Fasciae Latae' muscle.
>
> http://www.exrx.net/Muscles/TensorFasciaeLatae.html
>
> In my case that day, since I was doing a lot of kicking and jogging and
> starting to ramp up my weight training, the muscle was sore from use. I
> didn't have a sense that it hurt merely from being a vital point. If this
> gets sore as it sometimes does people advocate leaining stretches.
>
> Sometimes, if you search it for trigger points you can often find them and
> when you press it you can feel a rather quick sensation of muscular
> relaxation. To do it, when seated, take your same-side hand and wrap the
> fingers under the edge of your quad muscle and dig them in, feeling for the
> spot(s) that hurt. Then press on those spots with your thumb on top of the
> thigh, as though you're gripping the rim of the muscle and in a few seconds
> you'll get a release of the muscular tension. (or at least I do).
>
> Just wondering if others have the same trigger points, if the reason it's a
> 'vital' point is due to the characteristic tension and DOMS that occurs in
> a heavily used muscle, or if there's some underlying nerve structure.

Iliotibial band, more than tensor fascia latae.

> I find if I have massaged that muscle and/or released the trigger points a
> shin kick there is nowhere near as debilitating. I do a lot of pounding and
> pressing over that area on both legs when I'm working out trigger points at
> the end fo the day lying in bed.
>
> Just wondered if others worked on this part of the leg - conditioning or
> anything. Seems to hurt more if I'm doing heavy lifting - slight amount of
> DOMS maybe even after getting used to it.

A little; stretches and massage, mostly.


04 Nov 2005 18:26:50
RTWdesigns@earthlink.net
Re: Vital point - outer thigh

Oh damn, Badger! What a *bad* memory this topic brought back to me.
While sparring w/ someone, I got nailed on outside of my upper thigh
and I saw stars, planets, the whole damn universe. The guy hit the
point just right and from then on I decided to learn a bit more about
the meridians, acupressure points, etc. I had been hit/kicked on my
legs before but thought little of it thinking it'd be OK. I'm
protective of my shins, yes but never thought much about rest of the
leg. RTW <owie, leg throbbing just thinking about that one >



04 Nov 2005 22:05:56
Badger_S
Re: Vital point - outer thigh

On 4 Nov 2005 18:26:50 -0800, "RTWdesigns@earthlink.net"
<RTWdesigns@earthlink.net > wrote:

>Oh damn, Badger! What a *bad* memory this topic brought back to me.
>While sparring w/ someone, I got nailed on outside of my upper thigh
>and I saw stars, planets, the whole damn universe. The guy hit the
>point just right and from then on I decided to learn a bit more about
>the meridians, acupressure points, etc. I had been hit/kicked on my
>legs before but thought little of it thinking it'd be OK. I'm
>protective of my shins, yes but never thought much about rest of the
>leg. RTW <owie, leg throbbing just thinking about that one>

Hey, there. How's it goin'?

Throbbing, collapsed to the floor. At least you were sparring and not just
standing there like a dummy as was I. "B. let me show you...".

Grrr.

When they said the knee was vulnerable, they lied. For kicks, it's more the
spot on the side where you and I were hit, and also on the inside where the
quad is rounded on the inside that's killer if you can hit it repeatedly
with the roundhouse..

The Dog Bros also talk about catching the nerve at the back of the knee,
at the popliteus, but it's actually the tibial nerve branch from the
sciatic, but they call it the popliteal nerve, which is ok..

If you look at it you can see it's very near the surface::

http://www.bartleby.com/107/illus832.html

...making it very vulnerable to light, but on target taps to the backside
of the knee. They attack it with a jump in low line attack.

Sorry to bring back painful memories, but remember during that period you
grew as a person and learned a valuable lesson. Nobody can pull that on you
unaware again.

Take er easy good buddy. ;-)

-B



05 Nov 2005 20:09:10
Fraser Johnston
Re: Vital point - outer thigh


"Badger_S" <Badger_S@south.com > wrote in message
news:c0dnm1luhtfr0e6tc2g2miblhh0u66gnde@4ax.com...
>I remember when my second instructor first showed me the 'vital point' (or
> 'bi-tal point' as he'd say in his charming pidgin-English) along the side
> of the thigh. Normally in TKD sparring you didn't kick the legs, at least
> not in those days. It was strictly hands and feet off. ;-D
>
> We were standing around after class and he walked over and shin kicked me
> in the left outer thigh.
>
> After I stopped crying...ok, well at least tears in the eyes from the
> emotional impact that my sensei would 'king me' as he called it, had
> dispersed, I asked him about it. He didn't seem to know exactly why it
> hurt
> besides 'nerbe next to bone'.
>
> That line along the outer part of the leg roughly parallels the 'Tensor
> Fasciae Latae' muscle.
>
> http://www.exrx.net/Muscles/TensorFasciaeLatae.html
>
> In my case that day, since I was doing a lot of kicking and jogging and
> starting to ramp up my weight training, the muscle was sore from use. I
> didn't have a sense that it hurt merely from being a vital point. If this
> gets sore as it sometimes does people advocate leaining stretches.
>
> Sometimes, if you search it for trigger points you can often find them and
> when you press it you can feel a rather quick sensation of muscular
> relaxation. To do it, when seated, take your same-side hand and wrap the
> fingers under the edge of your quad muscle and dig them in, feeling for
> the
> spot(s) that hurt. Then press on those spots with your thumb on top of the
> thigh, as though you're gripping the rim of the muscle and in a few
> seconds
> you'll get a release of the muscular tension. (or at least I do).
>
> Just wondering if others have the same trigger points, if the reason it's
> a
> 'vital' point is due to the characteristic tension and DOMS that occurs in
> a heavily used muscle, or if there's some underlying nerve structure.
>
> I find if I have massaged that muscle and/or released the trigger points a
> shin kick there is nowhere near as debilitating. I do a lot of pounding
> and
> pressing over that area on both legs when I'm working out trigger points
> at
> the end fo the day lying in bed.
>
> Just wondered if others worked on this part of the leg - conditioning or
> anything. Seems to hurt more if I'm doing heavy lifting - slight amount of
> DOMS maybe even after getting used to it.

In JJJ we did a technique where you stand on their foot to trap it and then
knee them there. We call is a "deadleg" but I think the yank term is
"Charly horse".

Fraser




05 Nov 2005 08:52:42
Ken Vale
Re: Vital point - outer thigh

Fraser Johnston wrote:
> "Badger_S" <Badger_S@south.com> wrote in message
> news:c0dnm1luhtfr0e6tc2g2miblhh0u66gnde@4ax.com...
>
>>I remember when my second instructor first showed me the 'vital point' (or
>>'bi-tal point' as he'd say in his charming pidgin-English) along the side
>>of the thigh. Normally in TKD sparring you didn't kick the legs, at least
>>not in those days. It was strictly hands and feet off. ;-D
>>
>>We were standing around after class and he walked over and shin kicked me
>>in the left outer thigh.
>>
>>After I stopped crying...ok, well at least tears in the eyes from the
>>emotional impact that my sensei would 'king me' as he called it, had
>>dispersed, I asked him about it. He didn't seem to know exactly why it
>>hurt
>>besides 'nerbe next to bone'.
>>
>>That line along the outer part of the leg roughly parallels the 'Tensor
>>Fasciae Latae' muscle.
>>
>>http://www.exrx.net/Muscles/TensorFasciaeLatae.html
>>
>>In my case that day, since I was doing a lot of kicking and jogging and
>>starting to ramp up my weight training, the muscle was sore from use. I
>>didn't have a sense that it hurt merely from being a vital point. If this
>>gets sore as it sometimes does people advocate leaining stretches.
>>
>>Sometimes, if you search it for trigger points you can often find them and
>>when you press it you can feel a rather quick sensation of muscular
>>relaxation. To do it, when seated, take your same-side hand and wrap the
>>fingers under the edge of your quad muscle and dig them in, feeling for
>>the
>>spot(s) that hurt. Then press on those spots with your thumb on top of the
>>thigh, as though you're gripping the rim of the muscle and in a few
>>seconds
>>you'll get a release of the muscular tension. (or at least I do).
>>
>>Just wondering if others have the same trigger points, if the reason it's
>>a
>>'vital' point is due to the characteristic tension and DOMS that occurs in
>>a heavily used muscle, or if there's some underlying nerve structure.
>>
>>I find if I have massaged that muscle and/or released the trigger points a
>>shin kick there is nowhere near as debilitating. I do a lot of pounding
>>and
>>pressing over that area on both legs when I'm working out trigger points
>>at
>>the end fo the day lying in bed.
>>
>>Just wondered if others worked on this part of the leg - conditioning or
>>anything. Seems to hurt more if I'm doing heavy lifting - slight amount of
>>DOMS maybe even after getting used to it.
>
>
> In JJJ we did a technique where you stand on their foot to trap it and then
> knee them there. We call is a "deadleg" but I think the yank term is
> "Charly horse".
>
> Fraser
>
>
You don't need to step on the foot to trap it, I got nailed there with a
knee in a Muay Thai drill (he was supposed to kick the pads...) I was
sore and limping for 3 days.
Ken


05 Nov 2005 06:58:09
TimR
Re: Vital point - outer thigh

Surely you remember the Billy Jack movie where he takes out the big guy
with the knee to inner thigh.



06 Nov 2005 15:41:32
RTWdesigns@earthlink.net
Re: Vital point - outer thigh

<<Surely you remember the Billy Jack movie where he takes out the big
guy
with the knee to inner thigh. >>

I love that movie!! This flick and watching Bruce Lee
as Kato on the Green Hornet fueled my young dreams
of learning something cool instead of going to Girl Scouts.

yep.....painful memories! The 'mate I was sparring w/ had
Wing Tsung background and silly me, I was more concerned
about his hands. His foot caught me just right.
And Badger, I'd have to say what I learned from that lesson
was to not have complete trust in my sparring partners,
especially the newbies.
OK....I'm taking a break from work (all I seem to do these days)
and watch Kung Fu Hustle :-) RTW



07 Nov 2005 02:12:37
GreenDistantStar
Re: Vital point - outer thigh


<RTWdesigns@earthlink.net > wrote in message
news:1131320492.355115.323440@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> <<Surely you remember the Billy Jack movie where he takes out the big
> guy
> with the knee to inner thigh.>>
>
> I love that movie!! This flick and watching Bruce Lee
> as Kato on the Green Hornet fueled my young dreams
> of learning something cool instead of going to Girl Scouts.

Heh. My young dreams *were* fuelled by Girl Scouts ; >)

GDS




06 Nov 2005 23:18:10
Damion
Re: Vital point - outer thigh

"GreenDistantStar" <Greendistantstar@bigpond.com > wrote in message
news:pKybf.10524$Hj2.9666@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> Heh. My young dreams *were* fuelled by Girl Scouts ;>)
> GDS
Brownies are delicious.

-Damion




07 Nov 2005 05:25:53
RTWdesigns@earthlink.net
Re: Vital point - outer thigh

You guys are just *sick* !!! In fact,
where's the infamous RMA query?....
"tell me what you're wearing" ;-)
My wk just wouldn't be the same if
I didn't get a dose of dark humor from
you folks.....RTW :-/



11 Nov 2005 09:48:22
xiaou2
Re: Vital point - outer thigh


> When they said the knee was vulnerable, they lied.

Badger S, I dissagree. If the chambered down-diagnal stomp
kick is used.. a knee will sustain unbearable pain or breakage.
I know this, because sadly, I let my ego
(got tired of him tackling me, and not 'respecting a technique')
overpower my sensible control - and nearly broke the guys knee. He
reported to me later.. that he wasnt able to walk well for like a month
afterwords.. and I barely put any snap or weight into it.

But playing with the same guy a year later... we
agreed on "hands only sparring", to better develop hand
techniques. Well.. after a while of doing it.. there
was one instance where I got face to face close... and a little
tied up hand-wise. I playfully decided I was going to use
a light knee attack as a kind of 'you got me, but i cheat' ;) joke.

We were so close, that I mis judged my knee. I thought that it
was heading for the upper forward facing thigh, where it wouldnt
have done much at all, except a mild suprise. But instead, either
he turned.. or my thought where his leg was all wrong.. and I hit
the side of his upper thigh.

Immediately, I see him drop like a stone. I bearly touched him..
so I truely thought he was joking with me. Then I realize he
actually in pain. I had to ask him where I hit him, and what happened,
cause I couldnt see it - we were too close to each other.

Hit the spot dead on. Amazing how well it worked.. and
especially with so little force needed.

I hit myself there a few times to see what it felt like, and yep.. very
painfull. Ouchy! :)






14 Nov 2005 10:52:18
mike
Re: Vital point - outer thigh

Howdy,

I've both received and given some very painful outer knee injuries, like you
said, from quite light contact. I'm willing to accept that I might be a
pathetic wuss and succumb to pain too easily, but I don't think the other
guy was.

So how come the kickboxing guys hammer each other's outer thighs and press
on without too much difficulty? Every now and then you see one go down from
a thigh contact, but its pretty rare. What's the story there?

MIKE


"xiaou2" <xiaou2@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:Xns970B310211E74xiaou2hotmailcom@24.24.2.166...
>
>> When they said the knee was vulnerable, they lied.
>
> Badger S, I dissagree. If the chambered down-diagnal stomp
> kick is used.. a knee will sustain unbearable pain or breakage.
> I know this, because sadly, I let my ego
> (got tired of him tackling me, and not 'respecting a technique')
> overpower my sensible control - and nearly broke the guys knee. He
> reported to me later.. that he wasnt able to walk well for like a month
> afterwords.. and I barely put any snap or weight into it.
>
> But playing with the same guy a year later... we
> agreed on "hands only sparring", to better develop hand
> techniques. Well.. after a while of doing it.. there
> was one instance where I got face to face close... and a little
> tied up hand-wise. I playfully decided I was going to use
> a light knee attack as a kind of 'you got me, but i cheat' ;) joke.
>
> We were so close, that I mis judged my knee. I thought that it
> was heading for the upper forward facing thigh, where it wouldnt
> have done much at all, except a mild suprise. But instead, either
> he turned.. or my thought where his leg was all wrong.. and I hit
> the side of his upper thigh.
>
> Immediately, I see him drop like a stone. I bearly touched him..
> so I truely thought he was joking with me. Then I realize he
> actually in pain. I had to ask him where I hit him, and what happened,
> cause I couldnt see it - we were too close to each other.
>
> Hit the spot dead on. Amazing how well it worked.. and
> especially with so little force needed.
>
> I hit myself there a few times to see what it felt like, and yep.. very
> painfull. Ouchy! :)
>
>
>
>




14 Nov 2005 13:15:03
xiaou2
Re: Vital point - outer thigh


Hi Mike,

The main reason is the muscles. The muscles protect the
bones like a shock absorbing sponge, and when conditioned by repeated
strikes, the muscles density is greater - thus stronger.

The knee.. has no real protection. Your hitting solid bone.
The muscles that move the joint seems to be on the rear of the
knee. When the knee is hit with decent force.. its likly to
aquire some heavy damage.

The thigh however, not only has a thicker more durrable bone,
(unlike the knee which has many small parts), and its
surrounded by very thick conditioned muscle fibers and or fat,
tissue,..ect. Can take heavy hits without much harm because the
muscles fibers are very strong, durrable, and absorb shock well.

Funny enough, it seems bones have more sensativity receptors.
Try running your knuckles along your shin bone.. then along your outer
thigh. Maybe its cause my shin is not conditioned.. but man, its just
nasty feeling.




> Howdy,
>
> I've both received and given some very painful outer knee injuries,
> like you said, from quite light contact. I'm willing to accept that I
> might be a pathetic wuss and succumb to pain too easily, but I don't
> think the other guy was.
>
> So how come the kickboxing guys hammer each other's outer thighs and
> press on without too much difficulty? Every now and then you see one
> go down from a thigh contact, but its pretty rare. What's the story
> there?
>
> MIKE






14 Nov 2005 13:40:13
Shuurai
Re: Vital point - outer thigh


RTWdesigns@earthlink.net wrote:
> You guys are just *sick* !!! In fact,
> where's the infamous RMA query?....
> "tell me what you're wearing" ;-)
> My wk just wouldn't be the same if
> I didn't get a dose of dark humor from
> you folks.....RTW :-/

We aren't going to ask you what you're wearing, so pttthhhhh!