13 May 2006 09:39:18
Rollerski suggestions

Hi All,

I tried out my Swenor Combi roller skis today. I've had them for
several years but have never used them due to fear and discomfort. I
skied so much this last winter I figured I'd have another go. First I
went to an empty parking lot to experiment, then I went out on some
roads. The smooth asphalt in the parking lot was nice, but the roads
are way too rough. My feet were numb from vibrations almost
immediately, and I almost fell on my face from "sticktion" several
times. I also nearly had a heart attack every time a car passed me. I
see other people rollersking around here and I suppose the conditions
are actually pretty good, but it was just no fun for me. And that's not
even talking about going down hills! I also missed having good
pole-grip.

So I have been thinking more about some off-road or gravel road type
rollerskis. There are several flat dirt roads around here that have no
cars and are right outside my house. If rollerskis worked there it
would be perfect. I'd also get good pole-grip in a soft dirt road too.

Has anyone experience with Rolski "Cross Country 1" rollerskis with
15cm pneumatic wheels?

Any other suggestions for somewhat inexpensive dirt/gravel road
suitable rollerskis? I weigh 105kg, so that may also be an issue.

Thanks!

Joseph



13 May 2006 21:41:42
Jan Gerrit Klok
Re: Rollerski suggestions

<joseph.santaniello@gmail.com > schreef in bericht
news:1147538358.288507.13690@d71g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> Has anyone experience with Rolski "Cross Country 1" rollerskis with
> 15cm pneumatic wheels?
Would you have a link or other info on those?

I'm making 15cm wheeled rollerski's "myself" now, just not ready to shell
out Jenex cash, and wanting to try a ski length more proportionate to my
silly long inseam.
I found complete 150mm pneumatic road wheels for ?14.50 each, ~?10 if I had
had a Swiss shipping address.

www.siriro.de in Germany makes extra strong 15cm rollerski's with a very
basic design. I like them for that, but hate their price.

My dream is to make 2x2x150mm rollerski's to truely glide over dirt roads.
I'm pretty sure it can be made to work (ROCK) for taller dudes. And this :
http://www.siriro-shop.de/assets/big/DQbeweglich_big.jpg: design should
make the wheels get hung up half as much.

I'm also looking at designs like
http://www.doomwheels.com/articles/buildwod.phpbut then with more normal
boot height. A good design around 14" or 16" bicycle wheels should be quite
capable. Easy to mount lightweight and super-strong brakes too, also.

My Crosskates have 240mm wheels, but boots are quite high up. I run high
pressure for pavement, and at least at those pressures they're useless
offroad. Wheelbase too small for me 6'4" too I think, front wheels get hung
up all the time. 12" (300mm) wheels are in the above link will help. Like
with XC bikes, I'm pretty sure for XC rollerski's the ideal wheelsize is the
largest you can make to work for your technique. My main concern is hitting
rear wheels. Watching my Crosskate video's, I have some room to spare behing
the 240mm wheels, 300mm shouldn't be an issue at all. 350mm would be really
cool if gotten to work. 14" kids bike wheels exist.

I'm not sure what to expect from these 150mm tires. They're really stiff
tires, not the compliance you'd know from mountainbike tires. I'll be happy
enough if they (2 per foot) work decently on worn asphalt. After zero
expereince but lots of thinking, I would say it's good to have the front way
out there, and the binding close to the rear. Just to let the front wheel
roll over obstacles and through loose dirt more easily (less weight on it).
My 2x150mm rollerski's will be 650mm wheelbase until someone convinces me
otherwise. I just want to learn good technique on them, and do longer road
tours.

Happy XC Trails,

J




13 May 2006 14:33:41
Re: Rollerski suggestions

Here's a link for the Cross Country 1's (similar to Siriro basic ones,
but cheaper):

http://www.monsero.com/cross-country1.htm

And a link to a review by an Italian magazine:

http://www.skiroll.it/test/rolski-off-road/rolski-offroad-eng.htm

If you and your CNC-buddy ever get around to making some 2x2 rocker
rollerskis for use with 15cm pneumatic wheels, I'll happily buy some.

As for length and placement of bindings, I vote for room for big feet
(my 50's barely fit on my Swenor Combis), and aim for the binding pivot
to be at the balance point of the platform so they hang right when you
lift your leg.

Keeping the wheel size to a minimum for clearnace is probably a good
idea. I'm not thinking about real offroading, just gravel roads and
lousy pavement, so a 15cm should be fine. But 3 wheels might be nice
(all inline, but 2 in the front) so the pothole problem isn't as
significant.

Joseph

Jan Gerrit Klok wrote:
> <joseph.santaniello@gmail.com> schreef in bericht
> news:1147538358.288507.13690@d71g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> > Has anyone experience with Rolski "Cross Country 1" rollerskis with
> > 15cm pneumatic wheels?
> Would you have a link or other info on those?
>
> I'm making 15cm wheeled rollerski's "myself" now, just not ready to shell
> out Jenex cash, and wanting to try a ski length more proportionate to my
> silly long inseam.
> I found complete 150mm pneumatic road wheels for ?14.50 each, ~?10 if I had
> had a Swiss shipping address.
>
> www.siriro.de in Germany makes extra strong 15cm rollerski's with a very
> basic design. I like them for that, but hate their price.
>
> My dream is to make 2x2x150mm rollerski's to truely glide over dirt roads.
> I'm pretty sure it can be made to work (ROCK) for taller dudes. And this :
> http://www.siriro-shop.de/assets/big/DQbeweglich_big.jpg: design should
> make the wheels get hung up half as much.
>
> I'm also looking at designs like
> http://www.doomwheels.com/articles/buildwod.phpbut then with more normal
> boot height. A good design around 14" or 16" bicycle wheels should be quite
> capable. Easy to mount lightweight and super-strong brakes too, also.
>
> My Crosskates have 240mm wheels, but boots are quite high up. I run high
> pressure for pavement, and at least at those pressures they're useless
> offroad. Wheelbase too small for me 6'4" too I think, front wheels get hung
> up all the time. 12" (300mm) wheels are in the above link will help. Like
> with XC bikes, I'm pretty sure for XC rollerski's the ideal wheelsize is the
> largest you can make to work for your technique. My main concern is hitting
> rear wheels. Watching my Crosskate video's, I have some room to spare behing
> the 240mm wheels, 300mm shouldn't be an issue at all. 350mm would be really
> cool if gotten to work. 14" kids bike wheels exist.
>
> I'm not sure what to expect from these 150mm tires. They're really stiff
> tires, not the compliance you'd know from mountainbike tires. I'll be happy
> enough if they (2 per foot) work decently on worn asphalt. After zero
> expereince but lots of thinking, I would say it's good to have the front way
> out there, and the binding close to the rear. Just to let the front wheel
> roll over obstacles and through loose dirt more easily (less weight on it).
> My 2x150mm rollerski's will be 650mm wheelbase until someone convinces me
> otherwise. I just want to learn good technique on them, and do longer road
> tours.
>
> Happy XC Trails,
>
> J



13 May 2006 23:45:23
Jan Gerrit Klok
Re: Rollerski suggestions

Ah, I think I saw those before.
Price without clutch wheels indeed is nice.
Are those actually still for sale? Nice that it's the same 650mm I'll use.

Those frames are so minimalistic...my friend thinks we need to really use
oversize 50x50mm alu beams to get it sort of safe, but apparantly lighter
design seem to work for others. No idea how I'm going to get him to use
50x30mm beams.
To be honest, the Cross Country 1's do look like one with push right through
those fork attachments...

I thought about a 3-wheels setup with the rear being 10, 12, 14 or even 16",
and the front have the 2x150 rocker. The front rocker to reduce every branch
or pebble by factor two, the large rear tire to to get some speed going.
Hopefully it's possible to match your snow times over a giving trail in the
summer on wheels, that'd be awesome.


<joseph.santaniello@gmail.com > schreef in bericht
news:1147556021.782787.84310@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> Here's a link for the Cross Country 1's (similar to Siriro basic ones,
> but cheaper):
>
> http://www.monsero.com/cross-country1.htm
>
> And a link to a review by an Italian magazine:
>
> http://www.skiroll.it/test/rolski-off-road/rolski-offroad-eng.htm
>
> If you and your CNC-buddy ever get around to making some 2x2 rocker
> rollerskis for use with 15cm pneumatic wheels, I'll happily buy some.
>
> As for length and placement of bindings, I vote for room for big feet
> (my 50's barely fit on my Swenor Combis), and aim for the binding pivot
> to be at the balance point of the platform so they hang right when you
> lift your leg.
>
> Keeping the wheel size to a minimum for clearnace is probably a good
> idea. I'm not thinking about real offroading, just gravel roads and
> lousy pavement, so a 15cm should be fine. But 3 wheels might be nice
> (all inline, but 2 in the front) so the pothole problem isn't as
> significant.
>
> Joseph
>
> Jan Gerrit Klok wrote:
> > <joseph.santaniello@gmail.com> schreef in bericht
> > news:1147538358.288507.13690@d71g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> > > Has anyone experience with Rolski "Cross Country 1" rollerskis with
> > > 15cm pneumatic wheels?
> > Would you have a link or other info on those?
> >
> > I'm making 15cm wheeled rollerski's "myself" now, just not ready to
shell
> > out Jenex cash, and wanting to try a ski length more proportionate to my
> > silly long inseam.
> > I found complete 150mm pneumatic road wheels for ?14.50 each, ~?10 if I
had
> > had a Swiss shipping address.
> >
> > www.siriro.de in Germany makes extra strong 15cm rollerski's with a very
> > basic design. I like them for that, but hate their price.
> >
> > My dream is to make 2x2x150mm rollerski's to truely glide over dirt
roads.
> > I'm pretty sure it can be made to work (ROCK) for taller dudes. And this
:
> > http://www.siriro-shop.de/assets/big/DQbeweglich_big.jpg: design should
> > make the wheels get hung up half as much.
> >
> > I'm also looking at designs like
> > http://www.doomwheels.com/articles/buildwod.phpbut then with more
normal
> > boot height. A good design around 14" or 16" bicycle wheels should be
quite
> > capable. Easy to mount lightweight and super-strong brakes too, also.
> >
> > My Crosskates have 240mm wheels, but boots are quite high up. I run high
> > pressure for pavement, and at least at those pressures they're useless
> > offroad. Wheelbase too small for me 6'4" too I think, front wheels get
hung
> > up all the time. 12" (300mm) wheels are in the above link will help.
Like
> > with XC bikes, I'm pretty sure for XC rollerski's the ideal wheelsize is
the
> > largest you can make to work for your technique. My main concern is
hitting
> > rear wheels. Watching my Crosskate video's, I have some room to spare
behing
> > the 240mm wheels, 300mm shouldn't be an issue at all. 350mm would be
really
> > cool if gotten to work. 14" kids bike wheels exist.
> >
> > I'm not sure what to expect from these 150mm tires. They're really stiff
> > tires, not the compliance you'd know from mountainbike tires. I'll be
happy
> > enough if they (2 per foot) work decently on worn asphalt. After zero
> > expereince but lots of thinking, I would say it's good to have the front
way
> > out there, and the binding close to the rear. Just to let the front
wheel
> > roll over obstacles and through loose dirt more easily (less weight on
it).
> > My 2x150mm rollerski's will be 650mm wheelbase until someone convinces
me
> > otherwise. I just want to learn good technique on them, and do longer
road
> > tours.
> >
> > Happy XC Trails,
> >
> > J
>




14 May 2006 00:26:25
gr
Re: Rollerski suggestions

joseph.santaniello@gmail.com wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I tried out my Swenor Combi roller skis today. I've had them for
> several years but have never used them due to fear and discomfort. I
> skied so much this last winter I figured I'd have another go. First I
> went to an empty parking lot to experiment, then I went out on some
> roads. The smooth asphalt in the parking lot was nice, but the roads
> are way too rough. My feet were numb from vibrations almost
> immediately, and I almost fell on my face from "sticktion" several
> times. I also nearly had a heart attack every time a car passed me. I
> see other people rollersking around here and I suppose the conditions
> are actually pretty good, but it was just no fun for me. And that's not
> even talking about going down hills! I also missed having good
> pole-grip.
>
> So I have been thinking more about some off-road or gravel road type
> rollerskis. There are several flat dirt roads around here that have no
> cars and are right outside my house. If rollerskis worked there it
> would be perfect. I'd also get good pole-grip in a soft dirt road too.
>
> Has anyone experience with Rolski "Cross Country 1" rollerskis with
> 15cm pneumatic wheels?
>
> Any other suggestions for somewhat inexpensive dirt/gravel road
> suitable rollerskis? I weigh 105kg, so that may also be an issue.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Joseph
>
I think I am in the same boat as you; I have an old pair of Swenor
(classic only though I think) and sure don't like roads ,hills ,etc.
I was out for a bike ride today on a recently improved (with Federal
money to Federal standards) rail trail. As I was riding on the 10 ft
wide, very smooth (stone dust) surface, I had the thought that this
would roller ski pretty good.
It has a few advantages; No cars, little traffic of any sort,flat.
The only thing is I don't really want to poke ski pole holes in that
nice surface (maybe it would be ok). I may give the roller-skis a try again.
Take a look around to see if you have any really good rail trails in
your area.
gr


13 May 2006 19:59:39
Re: Rollerski suggestions

I can see the 2x2 150 mm ski drop back a lot due to the weight in the
back. The V2 150s drop a bit, but you get used to it.

And speaking of cash... those Crosskates you hvae are not cheap. At
least twice more expensive than any rollerski?



14 May 2006 10:31:29
Jan Gerrit Klok
Re: Rollerski suggestions

<runcyclexcski@yahoo.com > schreef in bericht
news:1147575579.860320.45270@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> I can see the 2x2 150 mm ski drop back a lot due to the weight in the
> back. The V2 150s drop a bit, but you get used to it.
>
> And speaking of cash... those Crosskates you have are not cheap. At
> least twice more expensive than any rollerski?
My Crosskates even had scary drop until I attached some elastic bands. I now
only get the amount of "clap" that I ask for with my push-of, halfway the
recovery I get a nice tap in the heels when the elastics band finishes it's
job.
Extending the front axle forward might make for a more balanced geometry,
but I wonder if that's really necessary.

I got the Crosskates for free, years ago. It was a business deal. Bought my
own poles. Only got to use them recently, before that just too da** afraid
to fall and ruin a bike season. My first 5km struggle was in full protective
downhill bike gear that I had obtained in the mean time.

Now to really get rolling offroad, I hope to find some 150mm tires that are
bike-compliant. Made for lower loads. These 150mm tires all seem to have
been made for scooters, derived from industrial design.
2x2 150mm would (obviously) reduce weight per wheel by factor 2. On top of
that peak loads, due to the rockers, will come down even more. A light,
flimsy, but FAST tire would suffice, and might help to get awesome fireroad
characterictics to match perfectly groomed snow trails closely. Very easy
rolling in pavement (like fast rollerski's, but much heavier), and once on
the trails just like real ski's with ankle weights.
If XC Rollerskiing proves to be doable after all, which avid skier will be
stuck on the road shoulder in the burning sun for hours on end, if one could
hide under the trees and sniff up nature, check out the wildlife and colors,
rest by a creek, etc?




14 May 2006 02:30:12
Re: Rollerski suggestions


gr wrote:
> joseph.santaniello@gmail.com wrote:
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I tried out my Swenor Combi roller skis today. I've had them for
> > several years but have never used them due to fear and discomfort. I
> > skied so much this last winter I figured I'd have another go. First I
> > went to an empty parking lot to experiment, then I went out on some
> > roads. The smooth asphalt in the parking lot was nice, but the roads
> > are way too rough. My feet were numb from vibrations almost
> > immediately, and I almost fell on my face from "sticktion" several
> > times. I also nearly had a heart attack every time a car passed me. I
> > see other people rollersking around here and I suppose the conditions
> > are actually pretty good, but it was just no fun for me. And that's not
> > even talking about going down hills! I also missed having good
> > pole-grip.
> >
> > So I have been thinking more about some off-road or gravel road type
> > rollerskis. There are several flat dirt roads around here that have no
> > cars and are right outside my house. If rollerskis worked there it
> > would be perfect. I'd also get good pole-grip in a soft dirt road too.
> >
> > Has anyone experience with Rolski "Cross Country 1" rollerskis with
> > 15cm pneumatic wheels?
> >
> > Any other suggestions for somewhat inexpensive dirt/gravel road
> > suitable rollerskis? I weigh 105kg, so that may also be an issue.
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > Joseph
> >
> I think I am in the same boat as you; I have an old pair of Swenor
> (classic only though I think) and sure don't like roads ,hills ,etc.
> I was out for a bike ride today on a recently improved (with Federal
> money to Federal standards) rail trail. As I was riding on the 10 ft
> wide, very smooth (stone dust) surface, I had the thought that this
> would roller ski pretty good.
> It has a few advantages; No cars, little traffic of any sort,flat.
> The only thing is I don't really want to poke ski pole holes in that
> nice surface (maybe it would be ok). I may give the roller-skis a try again.
> Take a look around to see if you have any really good rail trails in
> your area.
> gr

The Swenor Combi is the same as the classic, just a little shorter.
There is no such animal as Rail To Trails around here (Norway), but
there are some bike paths within 20 minutes drive. Out where I am it is
too rural for bike paths, but the problem with the bike paths is that
they are in more congested areas with lots of intersections, driveways,
etc which makes them very unsafe in my opinion. And they have even more
hills than the roads because sometimes (near a school or something)
they have built a small pedestrian underpass which means the path has a
steep up aund down to access the underpass. These paths are dangerous
on a bike with brakes, let alone an inexperienced roller-skier like
myself!

Rail to Trails sounds perfect. Miles of 2% or less grade, no cars, no
blind curves, etc. Give them a try.

What would be perfect for me would be some small mountain road leading
up to a summit with a funicular to come down on! Steep to get a good
workout and keep the speed down.

Joseph



14 May 2006 11:46:30
Jan Gerrit Klok
Re: Rollerski suggestions

> What would be perfect for me would be some small mountain road leading
> up to a summit with a funicular to come down on! Steep to get a good
> workout and keep the speed down.
Aaah, mountains...
The ones I've seen in Europe often have decent pavement and dirt surface up
to a couple one-two thousand feet from the valley, and only then turn into
rough "mtb trails". 8-15% all the way up, nice hairpins. Going down that
would be scary unless the speedreducers on truly offroad rollerskies work
dependably, and there are additional bombproof brakes to rely on.
I can see myself rolling down such a small mountain road on 2x2 150mm rocker
ski's. Making speed on the straights, easing on the speed reducers, or even
just relying on the brakes to kill speed into the hairpins, then step
through them XC-style. One hour+ of really brutal snow-like climbing, and 30
minutes of spectacular descending that trains stabilizer muscles and holding
a deep aero tuck?




15 May 2006 14:08:48
Re: Rollerski suggestions

If XC Rollerskiing proves to be doable after all, which avid skier will
be
stuck on the road shoulder in the burning sun for hours on end, if one
could
hide under the trees and sniff up nature, check out the wildlife and
colors,
rest by a creek, etc?
>>>>>>>>>>
nice :)



16 May 2006 00:05:17
Jan Gerrit Klok
Re: Rollerski suggestions


<runcyclexcski@yahoo.com > schreef in bericht
news:1147727328.346208.238510@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> If XC Rollerskiing proves to be doable after all, which avid skier will
> be
> stuck on the road shoulder in the burning sun for hours on end, if one
> could
> hide under the trees and sniff up nature, check out the wildlife and
> colors,
> rest by a creek, etc?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> nice :)
Worth to at least give it a proper try after a couple decades of
rollerskiing, I would say? I took mountainbikes over 6 decades of
cyclo-cross to happen.
Add some extra wheels and rockers, or borrow larger ones from kick scooters.
If they work, but are too clumsy, have lighter wheels and tires done. Carbon
frames even. Maybe Fisher, Atomic and friends need to get involved. If it's
just the rolling resistance that is a tad too great, more high-end tires
will make a lot of the difference.

Picture. 12mph+ for over an hour on end. Sneaking up on unexpecting
squirrels and birds. The wind on your ears is just the airspeed you're
travelling, under the tall trees. Following the easiest MTB trails, which
will make for the most awesome XC Rollerskiing.

Really, if stock V2 Aero 150S's are, as you guys say, faster than "snow" on
pavement with just 2 the 150mm wheels...
Now, double the amount of wheels to make them roll even faster. Use them
offroad and get back down to realistic snow speeds. Just might work, or at
least work better than anything tried before. With a bit of luck and smart
engineering (the rockers) I *think* it will work, and not disappoint anyone.

Such mega-long 4-wheelers should be also good for shorter stretches of
classic. That might help on bits of narrow or really rough (single)track to
be overcome.

Now for the real question. What kind of pole tips to use for all-round
off-roading? I was thinking a standard carbide one with a strong basket just
above it?




15 May 2006 19:04:30
Re: Rollerski suggestions

Jan, check it out:

http://www.skisport.ru/photos/picture.php?v=2&w=2&uid=468&id=8504&page=



15 May 2006 19:18:18
Re: Rollerski suggestions

regular rollerski poles work just fine. I haven't rollerskied in mud
(Aeros sink), but for short grass and sand standard rollerski poles
worked.

I still think that you will have to put wheels under the foot to get a
decent off-road ski. The wheels have to be spaced as close as possible
to roll over sharp rocks etc. I know that you want to ski on smooth
trails only, but... Smth like this:
http://covers.allshops.ru/z/zv/zve/zve3558big.jpg

Tank tracks are also worth thinking about. Italian Rollka grasskis are
a good prototype (I own a pair of those). They are just heavy, just
like crosskates.
http://www.grasski.org/
(that website features a 4-wheeled grass ski as well)



16 May 2006 10:14:38
Jan Gerrit Klok
Re: Rollerski suggestions

Hey, you could even fit 6x150mm in a row! People do skate on Rollerblade
Coyote's that are 3x150. Those specific Coyote boots may also be the ticket,
if a toe pivot can be created for them.
I'm not sure the closer spacing of having wheels under the feet will help
more than it hurts, with ride height. The higher the foot is off the ground,
the taller and stifer the boot will have to be.

I think three's 3 main ways to get better roll over obstacles :
1- Increase wheel size.
2- Use suspension
3- Increasing number of wheels, so the weight/wheel is reduced

I think wheels spacing itself is only a factor if wheels are propelled
themselves, but on rollerski's they are not. You won't roll over bigger
sharper rocks thanks to closer spacing, the first wheel to fit the rock will
get totally hung up anyway.

With my 4-wheeled system I would have options 2 and 3 installed.
The dependent rocker suspension system should help so much. But to put a
rocker UNDER to foot would ask for too tall a ground clearance, factoring in
rocker movement.

Your idea may work well if a long version of the LandRollers was made. 4 or
5 large LandRoller-style wheels sitting close together at an angle, even
reaching under the foot. Putting wheels at and angle allow larger wheels to
be spaced closer without making a second "track" per ski. I'm not sure how
angled wheels perform though.

What do grasski's weigh a piece, including boot? What speeds can be
maintained over flat and smooth offroad, even on-road? How long before one
gets tired? I've done 2-hour Crosskate tours. They're pigs to drag back up
the stairs to my appt, but really are okay to skate. No-poling makes them
feel more clumsy, although I hardly seem to suffer in cruising speed, once
I've gotten there. I even see a 5-wheeled ski, but those wheels look slow,
and platform too tall for comfortable skate-propulsion?

I'm impressed with the decent price of the Grasski's. The 100cm version
costs the same as a V2 Aero 150 set. But look how much more techology goes
into it! It's really the skateboard vs. battle tank.

Rather than the dependent rocker "suspension", each wheel could be suspensed
individually. A wheel path that starts horizontal and back then curves up,
so it will take up bumps easily, but won't compress when pushing off.
Requires lots of engineering though.
I bet the rockers will make obstacles seem much smaller already compared to
static wheels.
What worries me most is the current selection in 150mm tires. Which offer
the best roll and float offroad? My scooter road slicks are very stiff. I
did see that skike.at offers offroad tires for ?8.40 a pop. I bet the casing
and rubber will be as thick as on the scooter wheels though. All these tires
are designed to take have a man's weight, at all times, static wheel
placement. Not 1/4 of the weight off-road placed on rockers.

How would you like it if wheels 1 and 4 were held down by a spring on the
rocker axle, so they hit the trail first, and leave it last, a bit like ski
front and rear tips? A couple kg worth of push-off might be generated. No
idea how this spring tension would affect rocker efficiency, obviously.
Perhaps 2 and 3 should touch first and release last, opposite to ski's, as
the front wheel would have less than 1/4 of your weight, and roll really
smoothly over an obstacle.

With tank tracks or added wheels, it may be worth it to have rockers on the
edges to distribute loads, but not really compress the ride height. Under
the foot, wheels/rollers could be truely suspended, as they would not be
compressed when pushing off.
But I wonder if tank tracks will even be quite. Tanks roll at 50mph or so,
despite huge engines. I'm sure that on wheels, and smooth enough soil,
they'd go twice as fast.
A simple downhill coast, Grasski vs. Crosskate vs. Doomwheels will tell.

<runcyclexcski@yahoo.com > schreef in bericht
news:1147745897.999715.97640@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> regular rollerski poles work just fine. I haven't rollerskied in mud
> (Aeros sink), but for short grass and sand standard rollerski poles
> worked.
>
> I still think that you will have to put wheels under the foot to get a
> decent off-road ski. The wheels have to be spaced as close as possible
> to roll over sharp rocks etc. I know that you want to ski on smooth
> trails only, but... Smth like this:
> http://covers.allshops.ru/z/zv/zve/zve3558big.jpg
>
> Tank tracks are also worth thinking about. Italian Rollka grasskis are
> a good prototype (I own a pair of those). They are just heavy, just
> like crosskates.
> http://www.grasski.org/
> (that website features a 4-wheeled grass ski as well)
>




16 May 2006 12:39:49
Re: Rollerski suggestions

I think it's time for some drawings to be posted. I will make photos of
the rollkas and post them on the web.

The grasskis weigh about 3 kg each? They are slow on flats and it takes
quite a bit of effort to make them moving. The grasskis are also VERY
noisy. Each "link" of the track has two plastic wheels, the wheels roll
along a stainless steel rail. The links are also plastic. The tacks are
probably nylon... or some kind of industrial grade woven fabric. The
wheels (nylon, too?) don't have breagins, just stainless steel rods.
The wheels roll freely only when they are on the bottom of the ski;
when they come on top they are held to the rail with brackets that rub
quite a bit againts the steel frame, and I think that's what causes the
friction and the noise.

Making that grass ski both smooth AND light would be a challenge.
Putting each wheel on a tiny bearing would add a lot of weight. One
could make the frame of aluminum, but there are just too many wheels...



16 May 2006 23:16:02
Jan Gerrit Klok
Re: Rollerski suggestions

<runcyclexcski@yahoo.com > schreef in bericht
news:1147808389.861781.86440@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> I think it's time for some drawings to be posted.

I have a crappy pc and no proper designing software (nor skills), so I work
on paper.
I did these in Paint to send to people, you may have to zoom in to see
anything at all.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1060985/DoppelQuattroSpeedReducer-Brak
e.jpg
This one is for my idea to expand on the V2 speed reducer. But now the
roller working on both wheels simulatiously, for double the friction. At
first I though the rolle would be connected to the rocker pivot to
self-center that way. Later I gave the V-shaped rocker a "roof" to simply
mount the speed reducer on. Wheels can be placed pretty much infinitely
close together now, although that's less of an issue at the front. A turning
knob or level could set the friction level.
Due to the 2-wheels setup, I hope the centrally placed speed reducer will be
extremely light but twice as effective as other reducers on 150mm wheels.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1060985/Clipboard01.jpg
Another really rough sketch, to give an idea of the dimensions. It would be
long of course, but as "long" as the ski's don't get tangled up, it should
be all good. I guess the ideal length would be that of the binding till heel
of my 47-48 boot (which binding is shortest forward of the toe?) -4x156mm +
4x clearance. Just over 1m probably. Wheelbase (rocker pivots) 70-75cm.

It may all seem really bulky, but when I hold a pair of air wheels and swing
them through the air, it's really not that bad at all. Rockers will
eventually be carbon anyway, for weight and bling.
It will come down to adding ~400g per end of a decent weight 150mm rolski.

When we have a good working rollerski and all the hardtail and braking
system figured out, more drawings may be shown. Perhaps even build kits
offered at cost+our trouble. Won't be any time soon though.

Any ideas to easily make brakes or speed reducers are still very welcome.


<runcyclexcski@yahoo.com > schreef in bericht
news:1147808389.861781.86440@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> I think it's time for some drawings to be posted. I will make photos of
> the rollkas and post them on the web.
>
> The grasskis weigh about 3 kg each? They are slow on flats and it takes
> quite a bit of effort to make them moving. The grasskis are also VERY
> noisy. Each "link" of the track has two plastic wheels, the wheels roll
> along a stainless steel rail. The links are also plastic. The tacks are
> probably nylon... or some kind of industrial grade woven fabric. The
> wheels (nylon, too?) don't have breagins, just stainless steel rods.
> The wheels roll freely only when they are on the bottom of the ski;
> when they come on top they are held to the rail with brackets that rub
> quite a bit againts the steel frame, and I think that's what causes the
> friction and the noise.
>
> Making that grass ski both smooth AND light would be a challenge.
> Putting each wheel on a tiny bearing would add a lot of weight. One
> could make the frame of aluminum, but there are just too many wheels...
>




17 May 2006 06:51:07
Larry
Re: Rollerski suggestions

Wow, this off-road Rolski stuff looks pretty impressive - just what I
would like to do on bike paths. I just wouldn't want to deal with
international shipments and resolve issues accross the ocean. Any idea
if V2 150s offer similar performance?

Larry



17 May 2006 16:28:46
Jan Gerrit Klok
Re: Rollerski suggestions

"Larry" <vmarfitsin@amre.com > schreef in bericht
news:1147873867.685858.59080@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Wow, this off-road Rolski stuff looks pretty impressive - just what I
> would like to do on bike paths. I just wouldn't want to deal with
> international shipments and resolve issues accross the ocean. Any idea
> if V2 150s offer similar performance?
>
> Larry

V2 150's get killer reviews. I would get them for sure if trying something
myself wasn't both cooler and cheaper. I can't justify the cost and shipping
right now. If only I were still in the bike business with wholesale deals...

Main selling point for the V2's are the optional speed reducers and rear
brake. Those are part of most raving reviews on them. Supposedly the whole
safety and confidence issue of rollerskiing is taken away by those, opening
up nicer backroads and even smooth dirt hills.

It's good not to expect too much from the "off-road" thing. 150mm air wheels
will roll over uneven pavement that stops <100mm wheeled rollerski's dead,
but you won't pushing mountainbikers down gnarly trails.
Until a revolution in off-road rollerski's takes place, no-one will likely
get close to his snow-skating times on the same ungroomed/paved forrest
trails in the summer. I often see pictures of people offroading on 150's,
but video would convince me more :-)

My intension is to figure out and produce a set of rollerski's that will see
me manage decent snow-like average speeds in hilly forrests.




17 May 2006 11:37:33
Larry
Re: Rollerski suggestions

Thanks Jan. I don't have anything radical in mind, just flat hard
gravel roads that go along lakes and streams here around Princeton, NJ.
I wouldn't even call this off-roading, just "off-blacktop". After one
month of skating, I already hate the look of cookie-cutter mcmansions
that line the path that I normally use. Wouldn't it be nice to be in
the trees by the river. I guess the best thing would be to try the
Aeros first - seems like there is an outfit that does it by mail, for a
fee that can be counted towards a purchase.



18 May 2006 14:20:01
Jan Gerrit Klok
Re: Rollerski suggestions

This is an awesome review on the Aero 150's :
http://www.nordicskiracer.com/Equipment/V2Aero150S.asp

Unfortunately, after 4 years the updated reports expected in the wrote-up
aren't there yet, but it draws a very clear picture, even to me without any
small-wheel expereince.
Or wait, an update here :
http://www.nordicskiracer.com/Equipment/V2Aero150Supdate.asp

And about the V2 brakes :
http://www.nordicskiracer.com/Equipment/ReviewAeroBrake.asp

First the site wrote on the 150's :
http://www.nordicskiracer.com/Equipment/v2aerobuzz.asp

I may want to have to watch out with my slick tread scooter wheels in the
rain, but then I'm not a rain person and my rubber pole tips don't work too
well in the wet anyway.

If the treaded air wheels with 6.5 plies are already so fast and roll
decently over road debris, I wonder what specially made 2 or 3-ply tires
could do in "my" 4-wheel setup for off-roading. Better compliance at higher
pressures?
Also, if the V2 wheels are so fast on pavement, my 143mm 87A PU scooter
wheels may prove "interesting" when I have rollerski's to put them on. I'll
be sure to wear safety gear when trying those, and avoiding traffic, unless
I manage to buy/make proper brakes.

Someone I email with, daily nordic blades with Rollerblade Coyote 3-wheeled
150mm skates. His air tires keep wearing out, and he's now also ordered the
143mm PU wheels I got. Looking forward to hear his review of them, as he
rides every night, rain or shine. I bet his poles will be all but dragging
with those wheels...

I took the 240mm wheeled Crosskates to a grass lawn last night. Just a
raised middle berm in a business park. Only used by gardeners that maintain
it once in a while. It had been dry weather for a couple weeks, grass was
low, some cut grass still laying around. At the max 60psi I always use for
pavement, it was a bumpy and SLOW ride. Like a fast walk, at full power. It
felt like coming to a stop and continuing on 10 times a second. At silly-low
psi the bumping was better, but the roll was slow, push-off vague. Overall
slightly faster probably with the low air pressure, but quite a
disappointment I could not really "go" on the grass. Hopefully 12-14" wheels
or 4x150 will really help, and roll fast on forrest soil without the
energy-sucking grass to plow through.

"Larry" <vmarfitsin@amre.com > schreef in bericht
news:1147891053.510831.207090@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Thanks Jan. I don't have anything radical in mind, just flat hard
> gravel roads that go along lakes and streams here around Princeton, NJ.
> I wouldn't even call this off-roading, just "off-blacktop". After one
> month of skating, I already hate the look of cookie-cutter mcmansions
> that line the path that I normally use. Wouldn't it be nice to be in
> the trees by the river. I guess the best thing would be to try the
> Aeros first - seems like there is an outfit that does it by mail, for a
> fee that can be counted towards a purchase.
>