Two questions from this ski season

11 Apr 2008 18:48:38

Larry

Unfortunately, most of my ski time is on wheels, so the few days that
I got to spend on snow this year were full of surprises.

When skating, I found that I slip a lot on push-off, especially with
the tail of the ski. This obviously never happens on pavement with the
wheels' perfect grip, so now I'm trying to figure out what sort of bad
habit I've picked up.

When classicking uphill, after a while I'm getting this pain in the
elbow. This happened before, mostly with the right hand, but now this
happened on my left. Is this likely to be an issue of strength or
technique?

I could really use some ideas here.

Thanks!

11 Apr 2008 22:02:58

Re: Two questions from this ski season

Are you in a position to post any videos?

Larry <vmarfitsin@yahoo.com > wrote:

> Unfortunately, most of my ski time is on wheels, so the few days that
> I got to spend on snow this year were full of surprises.
>
> When skating, I found that I slip a lot on push-off, especially with
> the tail of the ski. This obviously never happens on pavement with the
> wheels' perfect grip, so now I'm trying to figure out what sort of bad
> habit I've picked up.
>
> When classicking uphill, after a while I'm getting this pain in the
> elbow. This happened before, mostly with the right hand, but now this
> happened on my left. Is this likely to be an issue of strength or
> technique?
>
> I could really use some ideas here.
>
> Thanks!

13 Apr 2008 04:33:05

ADK Skier

Re: Two questions from this ski season

On Apr 11, 6:48=A0pm, Larry <vmarfit...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> Unfortunately, most of my ski time is on wheels, so the few days that
> I got to spend on snow this year were full of surprises.
>
> When skating, I found that I slip a lot on push-off, especially with
> the tail of the ski. This obviously never happens on pavement with the
> wheels' perfect grip, so now I'm trying to figure out what sort of bad
> habit I've picked up.
>
> When classicking uphill, after a while I'm getting this pain in the
> elbow. This happened before, mostly with the right hand, but now this
> happened on my left. Is this likely to be an issue of strength or
> technique?
>
> I could really use some ideas here.
>
> Thanks!

This is very common when making the transition from rollerskis to
skate skis. When giving skate lessons on snow we did a very basic
drill. We had the skier stand stationary and began pressing against
the upper shoulder. They were forced to edge the ski to keep from
going over. It's a finesse movement for some skiers, but once you get
the feeling it should be no problem. Interestingly when I skied on my
Atomic RS11's they would slip out for a few k's until I got use to
their stability. On the other hand get on any Rossi skate ski with
the Cobra side cut and it will basically lay down the edge for you.
Hope this helps.

13 Apr 2008 05:06:10

Re: Two questions from this ski season

As far as your pain in your elbow goes, it could be alot of things. To
really be sure, I would have to watch you ski for a while to see what
your technique is like. There are basic techniques in both skating,
and striding, but after that, each person adapts those basics to their
own style. One of the problems, if you are having this problem going
up hill, could be that your poles are too long. Alot of people think
that if I have longer poles while doing classic, such as the same
length as your skate poles, you will have more power in your double
pole, and this is true, but when you come to a good size hill, it
actually gets harder with longer poles, and puts more strain on every
joint & muscle in your arms & shoulder. If your poles are the right
length, then it could be that you are standing too tall when climbing
a hill, and this puts more strain on your arms.
As far as slide out goes when pushing off while skating, you are
probably not turning your ankle to get on the edge of your ski at push
off, and that you are not staying on that ski long enough, because of
balance issues, and push off too early. On roller skis, you do not
have to turn your ankle as much to push off because your roller wheel
is rounded, and stays in contact with pavement, thus giving you more
grip, but when on snow, your ski is flat, and to get get push off, you
need to get ski on the edge, and that is where turning your anke in
comes in. Some people try to accomplish this by leaning over to one
side more, instead of turning ankle in, and this throws off your whole
technique.

13 Apr 2008 19:01:25

Larry

Re: Two questions from this ski season

Thank you guys. Interesting thoughts.

I'm curious about pole length for classic. Mine are 155cm and actually
feel a little short; my skate ones are 170 and feel perfect. I'm 6ft
2. The couple of times that I borrowed longer poles for classic (160),
it felt more comfortable - maybe because I was using my sholder and
back more than just triceps. Then again, by then my elbow was already
messed up, so who knows. Actually, the one thing that stopped the pain
or at least made it better was switching into skate skis and picking
up those 170 poles. It felt better even going uphill.

13 Apr 2008 19:25:35

Gunde

Re: Two questions from this ski season

On Apr 13, 8:01=A0pm, Larry <vmarfit...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> Thank you guys. Interesting thoughts.
>
> I'm curious about pole length for classic. Mine are 155cm and actually
> feel a little short; my skate ones are 170 and feel perfect. I'm 6ft
> 2. The couple of times that I borrowed longer poles for classic (160),
> it felt more comfortable - maybe because I was using my sholder and
> back more than just triceps. Then again, by then my elbow was already
> messed up, so who knows. Actually, the one thing that stopped the pain
> or at least made it better was switching into skate skis and picking
> up those 170 poles. It felt better even going uphill.

I am 6ft and use Swix recommended 155cm for classic and 165 for skate.
After using 170s for skating, I feel I can get over the poles much
better with the 165s, especially climbing.

13 Apr 2008 20:18:08

Re: Two questions from this ski season

On Apr 11, 8:48=A0pm, Larry <vmarfit...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> Unfortunately, most of my ski time is on wheels, so the few days that
> I got to spend on snow this year were full of surprises.
>
> When skating, I found that I slip a lot on push-off, especially with
> the tail of the ski. This obviously never happens on pavement with the
> wheels' perfect grip, so now I'm trying to figure out what sort of bad
> habit I've picked up.
>
> When classicking uphill, after a while I'm getting this pain in the
> elbow. This happened before, mostly with the right hand, but now this
> happened on my left. Is this likely to be an issue of strength or
> technique?
>
> I could really use some ideas here.
>
> Thanks!

I teach a lot of people to skate and beginners have the side slipping
problem all the time. There can be two reasons. One is that you skis
are too soft. The other is that you are pushing off with your toes
instead of the entire foot. Concentrate on pushing with the whole
foot. Even try riding the heel to get the feel of doing it right.
than at the very end of the push lift you toe up as you move to the
other ski. The skate off ski will jet forward and give you a little
boost

13 Apr 2008 22:18:19

Re: Two questions from this ski season

Top of grip (normal style) should be no higher than bone on side of
shoulder, but may be shorter if that's what it takes to get over the
poles and not have a delayed return (too long). Also, a more upright
style of striding will require a different length than for a more
traditional style. Terrain, too: for a flat (race) course where it will
be mostly double poling, a relatively longer pole will work, if you
have more than one set . I suggest ignoring the published tables. All
that matters is where you shoulder ends are, i.e., where you are
swinging from, and ultimately where you feel most comfortable and
efficient overall (there are wide differences in shoulder plane).

rm

Larry <vmarfitsin@yahoo.com > wrote:

> Thank you guys. Interesting thoughts.
>
> I'm curious about pole length for classic. Mine are 155cm and actually
> feel a little short; my skate ones are 170 and feel perfect. I'm 6ft
> 2. The couple of times that I borrowed longer poles for classic (160),
> it felt more comfortable - maybe because I was using my sholder and
> back more than just triceps. Then again, by then my elbow was already
> messed up, so who knows. Actually, the one thing that stopped the pain
> or at least made it better was switching into skate skis and picking
> up those 170 poles. It felt better even going uphill.

15 Apr 2008 21:31:23

Re: Two questions from this ski season

Larry wrote:
> Thank you guys. Interesting thoughts.
>
> I'm curious about pole length for classic. Mine are 155cm and actually
> feel a little short; my skate ones are 170 and feel perfect. I'm 6ft
> 2. The couple of times that I borrowed longer poles for classic (160),
> it felt more comfortable - maybe because I was using my sholder and
> back more than just triceps. Then again, by then my elbow was already
> messed up, so who knows. Actually, the one thing that stopped the pain
> or at least made it better was switching into skate skis and picking
> up those 170 poles. It felt better even going uphill.
I am only 6 foot and poles felt too short (classic) until I went to
155cm. I noticed that poles that seem long enough get shorter when I put
on skis and ski boots!
gr

17 Apr 2008 12:26:21

Re: Two questions from this ski season

On Apr 13, 11:18 pm, steved.thatc...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Apr 11, 8:48 pm, Larry <vmarfit...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Unfortunately, most of my ski time is on wheels, so the few days that
> > I got to spend on snow this year were full of surprises.
>
> > When skating, I found that I slip a lot on push-off, especially with
> > the tail of the ski. This obviously never happens on pavement with the
> > wheels' perfect grip, so now I'm trying to figure out what sort of bad
> > habit I've picked up.
>
> > When classicking uphill, after a while I'm getting this pain in the
> > elbow. This happened before, mostly with the right hand, but now this
> > happened on my left. Is this likely to be an issue of strength or
> > technique?
>
> > I could really use some ideas here.
>
> > Thanks!
>
> I teach a lot of people to skate and beginners have the side slipping
> problem all the time. There can be two reasons. One is that you skis
> are too soft. The other is that you are pushing off with your toes
> instead of the entire foot. Concentrate on pushing with the whole
> foot. Even try riding the heel to get the feel of doing it right.
> than at the very end of the push lift you toe up as you move to the
> other ski. The skate off ski will jet forward and give you a little
> boost

I had the same problem when I first started skating. Kicking out the
tails was primarily caused by having the skis not pointed out enough
going up hills. The solution was to consciously try to push off with
my heels. This bent my knees, got my hips back, and put even pressure
down the full length of the edge. I also found that on any given
slope, if I can comfortably plant my heels the tips are out at the
right angle.

19 Apr 2008 00:08:27

runcyclexcski@yahoo.com

Re: Two questions from this ski season

On Apr 11, 6:48 pm, Larry <vmarfit...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> Unfortunately, most of my ski time is on wheels, so the few days that
> I got to spend on snow this year were full of surprises.
>
> When skating, I found that I slip a lot on push-off, especially with
> the tail of the ski. This obviously never happens on pavement with the
> wheels' perfect grip, so now I'm trying to figure out what sort of bad
> habit I've picked up.
>
> When classicking uphill, after a while I'm getting this pain in the
> elbow. This happened before, mostly with the right hand, but now this
> happened on my left. Is this likely to be an issue of strength or
> technique?
>
> I could really use some ideas here.
>
> Thanks!

I have experienced the elbow problem when I started doing long uphill
rollerski skating sessions. To me the elbow pain was like the runner's
knee for runners. For me there were two solutions:

Short term solution: advil, old packs, and steroid shots. Thesteroids
got me through several races.

Long term solution: keep the elbows "outside" when planting the
poles. This forced me to use my back muscles rather than just the
triceps.

19 Apr 2008 12:14:04

Norski

Re: Two questions from this ski season

Hi Larry,
Our club offers several free 'Learn to Ski' days during the winter. It
is not just for beginners, we'll try to help anyone out. The club is in
Brule, WI and the website is: www.brulexcski.com/schedule
Usually other skiers are pretty reserved about criticizing other skiers
technique, but if you start mentioning issues you're having, they will come
up with a ton of good suggestions and tips.
Do your skis slip out on all snow conditions, or just hard packed/icy?
As others have suggested, it may be your skis are not fitted properly and
maybe too soft. One option would be to switch skis with someone else and see
if it solves the problem. Or rent a pair from a good shop to see if things
improve.

--

Paul Haltvick
Bay Design and Build - LLC
Engineering, Construction and Information Technology Services
FSx Midwest - Fischer / Swix Racing

"Larry" <vmarfitsin@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:96b6e977-8ca6-4b47-935b-14ac865b7a62@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> Unfortunately, most of my ski time is on wheels, so the few days that
> I got to spend on snow this year were full of surprises.
>
> When skating, I found that I slip a lot on push-off, especially with
> the tail of the ski. This obviously never happens on pavement with the
> wheels' perfect grip, so now I'm trying to figure out what sort of bad
> habit I've picked up.
>
> When classicking uphill, after a while I'm getting this pain in the
> elbow. This happened before, mostly with the right hand, but now this
> happened on my left. Is this likely to be an issue of strength or
> technique?
>
> I could really use some ideas here.
>
> Thanks!

19 Apr 2008 18:46:06

Larry

Re: Two questions from this ski season

> =A0 =A0 Do your skis slip out on all snow conditions, or just hard packed/=
icy?
> As others have suggested, it may be your skis are not fitted properly and
> maybe too soft. One option would be to switch skis with someone else and s=
ee
> if it solves the problem. Or rent a pair from a good shop to see if things=

> improve.
>

Wow, plenty of good ideas here.

Skis did seem to make a difference. I don't own snow skate equipment
(I can never get enough time on snow), so I rented in a few places. A
pair of beat-up Fischers rented at Mont St.Anne had no edge to them
whatsoever; a much newer pair of Rossis in Craftsbury seemed to have a
terrific bite almost all the time.