20 Nov 2003 20:34:00
ratchet
Diamond System help



ratchet wrote:

> can anyone tell me if there is someplace online to download a diamond
> system for dummies or pertinent info on using the diamond system that
> does not require a degree in mathmatics ??

>
>
> tom says ...I have discovered new ways to miss an easy shot :-o
> ....



21 Nov 2003 02:07:39
Vader93490
Re: Diamond System help

>
>
>
>ratchet wrote:
>
>> can anyone tell me if there is someplace online to download a diamond
>> system for dummies or pertinent info on using the diamond system that
>> does not require a degree in mathmatics ??

I don't know if this particular video is still available or not, but the late
Minnesota Fats had an instructional tape that had some coverage on the diamond
system. See if your local Blockbuster video has it for rent or if anyone's
selling it on Ebay.


21 Nov 2003 03:01:41
Bob Johnson
Re: Diamond System help

http://www.billard-club-sottevillais.com/cadret3b.htm/

--
Bob Johnson, Denver, Co.
bobj@cris.com

"ratchet" <ratchet@greenapple.com > wrote in message
news:3FBD6B88.68961C87@greenapple.com...
>
>
> ratchet wrote:
>
> > can anyone tell me if there is someplace online to download a diamond
> > system for dummies or pertinent info on using the diamond system that
> > does not require a degree in mathmatics ??
>
> >
> >
> > tom says ...I have discovered new ways to miss an easy shot :-o
> > ....
>




21 Nov 2003 00:08:27
Gregory
Re: Diamond System help

ratchet wrote
> can anyone tell me if there is someplace online
> to download a diamond system for dummies or
> pertinent info on using the diamond system that
> does not require a degree in mathmatics ??

http://www.jimloy.com/billiard/billiard.htm
look under 'Kicks and Banks'




21 Nov 2003 18:17:38
Bob Jewett
Re: Diamond System help

ratchet <ratchet@greenapple.com > wrote:

>> can anyone tell me if there is someplace online to download a diamond
>> system for dummies or pertinent info on using the diamond system that
>> does not require a degree in mathmatics ??

Is the section in the FAQ helpful?

http://www.sfbilliards.com/faq.html

6. ** What is the "Diamond System"?

--

Bob Jewett
http://www.sfbilliards.com/



21 Nov 2003 22:05:54
Tracy Beal
Re: Diamond System help

Bob,
That is not much help, Byrne's New Standard Book Of Pool and Billiards sheds
good light on the subject. I heard that pro's (3C) use systems on a small
percentage of their shots. They use feel and experience more. I do recommend
Byrne's book to get a good idea of it, but without math ability it is little
help.
Tracy
"Bob Jewett" <jewett@sfbilliards.com > wrote in message
news:1069438658.639824@emperor.labs.agilent.com...
> ratchet <ratchet@greenapple.com> wrote:
>
> >> can anyone tell me if there is someplace online to download a diamond
> >> system for dummies or pertinent info on using the diamond system that
> >> does not require a degree in mathmatics ??
>
> Is the section in the FAQ helpful?
>
> http://www.sfbilliards.com/faq.html
>
> 6. ** What is the "Diamond System"?
>
> --
>
> Bob Jewett
> http://www.sfbilliards.com/
>




21 Nov 2003 22:16:43
Bob Jewett
Re: Diamond System help

Tracy Beal <tvbeal@nospamearthlink.net > wrote:
[about the section in the FAQ on the "Diamond System"]

> That is not much help, ...

OK, how could it be improved? Or should it be eliminated?

--

Bob Jewett
http://www.sfbilliards.com/



21 Nov 2003 22:22:39
Bob Jewett
Re: Diamond System help

> That is not much help, ...

For reference, here is the section of the FAQ referred to. -- Bob

...

6. ** What is the "Diamond System"?

There are many diamond systems. In general, they allow you to plan
shots that require the cue ball or object ball to contact one or more
rails. One of the best treatments for pool is in Eddie Robin's first
one pocket book. A large part of Byrne's books and articles are about
diamond systems. Walt Harris has four books out ("Billiard Atlas
[1-4]") that cover mostly carom diamond systems, but he also discusses
their use on pool tables.

If a system is called simply the "Diamond System" the speaker probably
means the "corner five" system. A shot from that (for pool tables):
Place the cue ball as shown, and shoot it to "a" with running english
(side spin). The cue ball should hit cushions at a-b-c and go towards
the other corner to pocket "o". The system tells you how to adjust to
go to any destination on the third rail from any origin for roughly the
same kind of path. This is done by assigning numbers to the spots
(diamonds) on the rail and doing some simple arithmetic. See Byrne's
"Standard" book for use of the formula. Tables, balls, stroke and
sticks vary. A very simple example:

___________ ____________
q c
| | (Use a fixed-width font to view this.)
| | ("Courier" might work.)
| b|
| | "a" is roughly 2 diamonds from the corner
| | "c" is roughly 3 diamonds from the corner
o__________ ______a_____ "q" is at the corner which is assigned "5"

3 = 5 - 2 (Other situations use fractions of a diamond.)

An on-line discussion by Jim Loy of using the diamonds for kick shots is
at http://www.jimloy.com/billiard/billiard.htmalong with a lot of other
billiard topics.

7. ** How should I choose a cue?
...



21 Nov 2003 22:40:40
Tracy Beal
Re: Diamond System help

Bob,
I know the FAQ is not to be a full instructional. With that in mind the FAQ
is correct but vague. Such as, is "o" origin or is "q". Also q =5, why does
q equal 5? What does half a diamond from q on the short rail equal? Bob I am
not trying to start something, I admire your dedication to the FAQ and even
defended it in a drunken state some years ago. I would give it a try but I
am surely at a disadvantage to your knowledge and eloquence. If you were
offended, I am sorry.
Tracy
"Bob Jewett" <jewett@sfbilliards.com > wrote in message
news:1069453003.11752@emperor.labs.agilent.com...
> Tracy Beal <tvbeal@nospamearthlink.net> wrote:
> [about the section in the FAQ on the "Diamond System"]
>
> > That is not much help, ...
>
> OK, how could it be improved? Or should it be eliminated?
>
> --
>
> Bob Jewett
> http://www.sfbilliards.com/
>




21 Nov 2003 23:11:08
Bob Hartman
Re: Diamond System help

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 22:16:43 +0000 (UTC), Bob Jewett
<jewett@sfbilliards.com > wrote:

>Tracy Beal <tvbeal@nospamearthlink.net> wrote:
>[about the section in the FAQ on the "Diamond System"]
>
>> That is not much help, ...
>
>OK, how could it be improved? Or should it be eliminated?

For a lot of people, when wanting to go from one starting point, then
3 rails and back to a target point, the so-called spot-on-the-wall
system is generally easier and quicker. As you know there is no math
involved. Perhaps you would be kind enough to explain it.

Bob Hartman



21 Nov 2003 23:52:53
Tracy Beal
Re: Diamond System help

I can see how a spot on a wall may be of help on one rail shots but not on
three. If you do find a spot, you can not take it to another table with you.
Also if the wall is not the exact distance from the table your spot is only
good for a single origin point to a single destination line. The original
question was, is there an easy no math way, to that I would say no. The
Diamond System is not a magic pill, and it takes time to understand it. It
is not perfect but it can give a good starting point to reference.
Tracy
"Bob Hartman" <x1hart@earthlink.net > wrote in message
news:gf6trvcphb5cn9gjed1mhd3s4hjfa8rlvh@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 22:16:43 +0000 (UTC), Bob Jewett
> <jewett@sfbilliards.com> wrote:
>
> >Tracy Beal <tvbeal@nospamearthlink.net> wrote:
> >[about the section in the FAQ on the "Diamond System"]
> >
> >> That is not much help, ...
> >
> >OK, how could it be improved? Or should it be eliminated?
>
> For a lot of people, when wanting to go from one starting point, then
> 3 rails and back to a target point, the so-called spot-on-the-wall
> system is generally easier and quicker. As you know there is no math
> involved. Perhaps you would be kind enough to explain it.
>
> Bob Hartman
>




22 Nov 2003 01:28:23
Bob Jewett
Re: Diamond System help

Tracy Beal <tvbeal@nospamearthlink.net > wrote:

> I can see how a spot on a wall may be of help on one rail shots
> but not on three. If you do find a spot, you can not take it
> to another table with you.

I think Byrne covers the extension to three cushion shots somewhere.
The basic idea is:

Suppose the cue ball is in a position for which you are at a
loss for how to get to a target after three (or N) cushions,
but there are two other cue ball locations for which you know
the shot lines to get to the target. Sight along those two
known lines and find the point at which they intersect. If
you're very lucky, several things will happen. The point will
be in front of you, the point will be at a wall (or chair, or
other table, or....), and if you shoot from your awkward cue
ball location towards that point, you will hit the target.

Even if you don't have a system that gets you to the target, you
can develop one by discovering by trial and error two sighting
lines that get to a common target -- for example the corner of
the table -- and simply taking their intersection as the "spot
on the wall."

I think one technique for some families of shots is to take a
point along a single line and a specific distance, such as ten
feet, from the end of the table for the spot on the wall.

Since walls are not required to be an exact distance from the
table, "spot on the wall" is an inaccurate name, and would be
better as "common convergence point for a single multi-rail
target for a family of starting points" but so far the campaign
for the name change is having trouble finding funding.

In Byrne's "Wonderful World of Billiards" there is a common-point
system called "the opposite 3 system" which is a 3-cushion system
for which the "spot on the wall" turns out to be on the table.

--

Bob Jewett
http://www.sfbilliards.com/



22 Nov 2003 01:38:37
Bob Jewett
Re: Diamond System help

So, I'll change the "o" to x so people won't think it's the cue
ball; the text will say '... The cue ball "q" should ...'; I'll
add something to the effect that

If the cue ball is in the corner, it's said to have a value of
"5" because that's the number that makes the system work, and
it's why this particular diamond system is called the "corner
five" system. For the full numbering of all the diamonds of
all the cushions, see Byrne.

Are other changes needed?

> 6. ** What is the "Diamond System"?
...
> If a system is called simply the "Diamond System" the speaker probably
> means the "corner five" system. A shot from that (for pool tables):
> Place the cue ball as shown, and shoot it to "a" with running english
> (side spin). The cue ball should hit cushions at a-b-c and go towards
> the other corner to pocket "o". The system tells you how to adjust to
> go to any destination on the third rail from any origin for roughly the
> same kind of path. This is done by assigning numbers to the spots
> (diamonds) on the rail and doing some simple arithmetic. See Byrne's
> "Standard" book for use of the formula. Tables, balls, stroke and
> sticks vary. A very simple example:

> ___________ ____________
> q c
> | | (Use a fixed-width font to view this.)
> | | ("Courier" might work.)
> | b|
> | | "a" is roughly 2 diamonds from the corner
> | | "c" is roughly 3 diamonds from the corner
> o__________ ______a_____ "q" is at the corner which is assigned "5"

> 3 = 5 - 2 (Other situations use fractions of a diamond.)

> An on-line discussion by Jim Loy of using the diamonds for kick shots is
> at http://www.jimloy.com/billiard/billiard.htmalong with a lot of other
> billiard topics.

> 7. ** How should I choose a cue?
> ...


--

Bob Jewett
http://www.sfbilliards.com/



22 Nov 2003 04:29:04
John W. Pierce
Re: Diamond System help

I think it'd be useful for the FAQ to include a reference to the Tuzul
system, and the book on it, that Mike Shamos reviewed briefly in the
November 2003 issue of Billiards Digest.

-- jwp




22 Nov 2003 04:50:28
Tracy Beal
Re: Diamond System help


> Suppose the cue ball is in a position for which you are at a
> loss for how to get to a target after three (or N) cushions,
> but there are two other cue ball locations for which you know
> the shot lines to get to the target. Sight along those two
> known lines and find the point at which they intersect. If
> you're very lucky, several things will happen. The point will
> be in front of you, the point will be at a wall (or chair, or
> other table, or....), and if you shoot from your awkward cue
> ball location towards that point, you will hit the target.
Bob,
I think this is what the person who coined "extrapolating" had in mind.

> In Byrne's "Wonderful World of Billiards" there is a common-point
> system called "the opposite 3 system" which is a 3-cushion system
> for which the "spot on the wall" turns out to be on the table.
This is interesting. I will have to look for this book.
Tracy




21 Nov 2003 23:48:44
Patrick Johnson
Re: Diamond System help

Bob Hartman wrote:

> ... the so-called spot-on-the-wall
> system is generally easier and quicker. As you know there is no math
> involved. Perhaps you would be kind enough to explain it.

I don't think most people who know about this system realize that it's
really just an extension of the one rail "mirror" system. If you
imagine not just one mirror image table next to the real table but a
whole grid of them extending in all directions (as if there were mirrors
surrounding the real table), the "spot on the wall" for a 3-rail shot
from a corner pocket to the nearest other corner pocket would be located
about where the corner pocket is on the table that's three "reflections"
away. On the diagram below, draw a line from the lower left corner to
the upper right one, then draw a line from anywhere else on the lower
left "table" to the upper right corner, and you might see what I mean.

Pat Johnson
Chicago

_________________________________________________
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
|_______________|_______________|_______________|
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
|_______________|_______________|_______________|






22 Nov 2003 06:54:22
dalecue
Re: Diamond System help


Tracy Beal wrote in message
<6%vvb.13808$Wy4.5759@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net >...
>Bob,
>That is not much help, Byrne's New Standard Book Of Pool and Billiards
sheds
>good light on the subject. I heard that pro's (3C) use systems on a small
>percentage of their shots. They use feel and experience more. I do
recommend
>Byrne's book to get a good idea of it,

Tracy
>but without math ability it is little help.

IIRC - for most "Diamond Systems" the only math ability
required is _very_ simple addition and subtraction

Dale<...up to the challange >




>Tracy
>"Bob Jewett" <jewett@sfbilliards.com> wrote in message
>news:1069438658.639824@emperor.labs.agilent.com...
>> ratchet <ratchet@greenapple.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> can anyone tell me if there is someplace online to download a diamond
>> >> system for dummies or pertinent info on using the diamond system that
>> >> does not require a degree in mathmatics ??
>>
>> Is the section in the FAQ helpful?
>>
>> http://www.sfbilliards.com/faq.html
>>
>> 6. ** What is the "Diamond System"?
>>
>> --
>>
>> Bob Jewett
>> http://www.sfbilliards.com/
>>
>
>




22 Nov 2003 06:57:45
dalecue
Re: Diamond System help


Bob Hartman wrote in message ...
>On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 22:16:43 +0000 (UTC), Bob Jewett
><jewett@sfbilliards.com> wrote:
>
>>Tracy Beal <tvbeal@nospamearthlink.net> wrote:
>>[about the section in the FAQ on the "Diamond System"]
>>
>>> That is not much help, ...
>>
>>OK, how could it be improved? Or should it be eliminated?
>
>For a lot of people, when wanting to go from one starting point, then
>3 rails and back to a target point, the so-called spot-on-the-wall
>system is generally easier and quicker. As you know there is no math
>involved. Perhaps you would be kind enough to explain it.
>
>Bob Hartman
>

good point - but the spot on the wall is sort of based on the Diamond
System, or rather they are two diferent methods based on the same concept -
and with SOTW you don't nedd to make so many "adjustments"

Dale




22 Nov 2003 07:09:21
dalecue
Re: Diamond System help


Tracy Beal wrote in message ...
>I can see how a spot on a wall may be of help on one rail shots but not on
>three. If you do find a spot, you can not take it to another table with
you.
>Also if the wall is not the exact distance from the table your spot is only
>good for a single origin point to a single destination line.

not really correct, as matter of fact, the farther away your spot is, the
more accurate the results are - and it is much more accurate for
3, 4, and 5 rails than for one rail. it also handles multiple origin
points - thats the whole idea behind SOTW



>The original
>question was, is there an easy no math way,

actually the question was for a system that
"does not require a degree in mathematics" not exactly
the same as no math at all

Dale<...still lobbying for clarity >



to that I would say no. The
>Diamond System is not a magic pill, and it takes time to understand it. It
>is not perfect but it can give a good starting point to reference.
>Tracy
>"Bob Hartman" <x1hart@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>news:gf6trvcphb5cn9gjed1mhd3s4hjfa8rlvh@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 22:16:43 +0000 (UTC), Bob Jewett
>> <jewett@sfbilliards.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Tracy Beal <tvbeal@nospamearthlink.net> wrote:
>> >[about the section in the FAQ on the "Diamond System"]
>> >
>> >> That is not much help, ...
>> >
>> >OK, how could it be improved? Or should it be eliminated?
>>
>> For a lot of people, when wanting to go from one starting point, then
>> 3 rails and back to a target point, the so-called spot-on-the-wall
>> system is generally easier and quicker. As you know there is no math
>> involved. Perhaps you would be kind enough to explain it.
>>
>> Bob Hartman
>>
>
>




22 Nov 2003 19:55:29
JoePisko
Re: Diamond System help

>
> Since walls are not required to be an exact distance from the
> table, "spot on the wall" is an inaccurate name, and would be
> better as "common convergence point for a single multi-rail
> target for a family of starting points" but so far the campaign
> for the name change is having trouble finding funding.

Such resistance to accuracy in language never ceases to amaze me.
Joe



22 Nov 2003 16:03:42
ratchet
Re: Diamond System help

Hey Guys ....as far as I am concerned.....most if not all correct info I
get is bound to help my game than no info at all , I enjoy reading all
your posts and info and the occasional jibing you all give one another and
am really interested in improving my game Thanks again ...
Tom


"John W. Pierce" wrote:

> I think it'd be useful for the FAQ to include a reference to the Tuzul
> system, and the book on it, that Mike Shamos reviewed briefly in the
> November 2003 issue of Billiards Digest.
>
> -- jwp



24 Nov 2003 01:54:45
Bob Jewett
Re: Diamond System help

John W. Pierce <jwp@ucsd.edu > wrote:

> I think it'd be useful for the FAQ to include a reference to
> the Tuzul system, and the book on it, that Mike Shamos reviewed
> briefly in the November 2003 issue of Billiards Digest.

If the book were readily available, a reference might be useful.
The system promises to do a lot.

--

Bob Jewett
http://www.sfbilliards.com/