29 Sep 2004 23:06:14
Billy Bob
How tight to stretch Simonis 860?

I saw someone installing Championship 3030 cloth. He was basically pulling
with all his might, even put a knee up against the table so he could pull
tighter!

How hard should you pull to stretch Simonis 860? (I heard that this cloth
should not be stretched as tightly, but don't know if that is true or not?)

Or maybe it would be easiest for me to understand if you said how hard you
should pull Simonis 860 in relation to Championship 3030 cloth? Same? 3/4
as much pull? 1/2 as much pull? 1/4 as much pull?




30 Sep 2004 11:38:06
Bob Johnson
Re: How tight to stretch Simonis 860?

I'm not sure how you can measure or quantify "how tight" you pull on the
cloth. I'm not an installer or an expert by any means, but the 860 on my
table is tight on the surface and against the slate, but doesn't appear
stretched. When I vacuum it, if I place the ShopVac directly on the cloth
and pull up rather than along the surface, I can lift the cloth slightly off
the slate.

Perhaps Bill at Showcase Billiards can ask Nick, their highly skilled table
mechanic, if he can describe the stretching process?

--
Bob Johnson, Denver, Co.
bobj@cris.com

"Billy Bob" <billybobnospam@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:2s1lu2F1es3leU1@uni-berlin.de...
>I saw someone installing Championship 3030 cloth. He was basically pulling
> with all his might, even put a knee up against the table so he could pull
> tighter!
>
> How hard should you pull to stretch Simonis 860? (I heard that this cloth
> should not be stretched as tightly, but don't know if that is true or
> not?)
>
> Or maybe it would be easiest for me to understand if you said how hard you
> should pull Simonis 860 in relation to Championship 3030 cloth? Same? 3/4
> as much pull? 1/2 as much pull? 1/4 as much pull?
>
>




30 Sep 2004 10:13:15
Jake
Re: How tight to stretch Simonis 860?

These cloths loosen and stretch and will play fast and a month later
slow down a lot. If you can put your hand on the cloth and push it,
move it, get a roll or crease in it, then it is very loose.

I tell installers they can't put it on too tight.

The truth is on most tables, you should come back in 2 or 3 weeks later
and remove the staples and repull it but few will ever do this.

When I do my cloth on my private studio table I install it in the
morning and let it set for 24 hrs. The next day I remove staples and
repull it tighter and then I finish the job and put the rails back on.
You can use pliars to grab the cloth and you can then pull it tighter
than what you can do with the bare hands.

A top table mechanic knows this and will try and do a first class job
and put down a tight cloth. Some lazy bum just hired off the street
with mimimum training which is 75% of the people doing these jobs now,
will do as little as possible and leave a sloppy job because he knows,
you the homeowner where he is doing the job, does not know.
They get by with murder there. Doing jobs in pool halls, they screw
them up as well but do not get invited back when they do.



30 Sep 2004 21:04:00
Ken Bour
Re: How tight to stretch Simonis 860?

Pull any/all of the worsted cloths as tightly as you can manage. It will
stretch/loosen up a little over time, so the tighter it is when you install,
the faster surface you will retain. The way I test tightness is to moisten
my fingers and press them at an angle against the cloth bed at various
spots, including the center. If the cloth gathers or bubbles, then it's too
loose. IMO.

Ken Bour


"Billy Bob" <billybobnospam@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:2s1lu2F1es3leU1@uni-berlin.de...
> I saw someone installing Championship 3030 cloth. He was basically pulling
> with all his might, even put a knee up against the table so he could pull
> tighter!
>
> How hard should you pull to stretch Simonis 860? (I heard that this cloth
> should not be stretched as tightly, but don't know if that is true or
not?)
>
> Or maybe it would be easiest for me to understand if you said how hard you
> should pull Simonis 860 in relation to Championship 3030 cloth? Same? 3/4
> as much pull? 1/2 as much pull? 1/4 as much pull?
>
>




30 Sep 2004 17:23:40
Patrick Johnson
Re: How tight to stretch Simonis 860?

Ken Bour wrote:

> ... the worsted cloths ... will stretch/loosen up a little over time

I'd like to have a table that made it easier to re-stretch the cloth.
The way cloth is installed today it's probably too closely trimmed and
too weak from stapling. But I wonder: If those problems could be
solved, is it easy enough for a layman to take the rails off and get
them back on correctly?

Pat Johnson
Chicago



30 Sep 2004 19:50:13
Mark0
Re: How tight to stretch Simonis 860?

I bet you can guess what *I* think, Pat.


--
Mark0

Author of Secrets to a Perfect Pool Table Recovery Job
http://mccauleyweb.com/secrets.htm

Replace CAPITALS with the @ symbol to reply by email



"Patrick Johnson" <patrick.johnsonREMOVE@THIScomcast.net > wrote in message
news:ppSdnVfPfc7wGsHcRVn-iA@comcast.com...
> Ken Bour wrote:
>
> > ... the worsted cloths ... will stretch/loosen up a little over time
>
> I'd like to have a table that made it easier to re-stretch the cloth.
> The way cloth is installed today it's probably too closely trimmed and
> too weak from stapling. But I wonder: If those problems could be
> solved, is it easy enough for a layman to take the rails off and get
> them back on correctly?
>
> Pat Johnson
> Chicago
>




01 Oct 2004 01:49:15
Re: How tight to stretch Simonis 860?

On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 23:06:14 -0700, "Billy Bob"
<billybobnospam@yahoo.com > wrote:

>I saw someone installing Championship 3030 cloth. He was basically pulling
>with all his might, even put a knee up against the table so he could pull
>tighter!
>
>How hard should you pull to stretch Simonis 860? (I heard that this cloth
>should not be stretched as tightly, but don't know if that is true or not?)

I thought I'd heard it should be stretched more tightly. Anyway, we
had 860 installed the last time we had our table recovered, about a
year and a half ago. It was the third or fourth time this installer
had recovered our table, but the first time he had worked with 860. I
don't recall if he put his knee against the table, but he certainly
appeared to stretch the stuff as much as he could. When it's very
humid (most of the summer) we have a couple of ripples in front of the
side pockets, something we've never had before. When the humidity
goes down, the ripples disappear. Surprisingly, they don't really
seem to make much difference. They look so large that you'd expect
the balls to deflect badly, but they don't. Since we never had any
ripples or bubbles in his previous installations, I assume these
ripples are due to the 860.

If you're having 860 installed, I suggest you try to find someone
who's worked with it before.

Emily



01 Oct 2004 12:03:07
Dirk G. Straka
Re: How tight to stretch Simonis 860?

Hi Pat,

thus spoke Patrick Johnson:
> I'd like to have a table that made it easier to re-stretch
> the cloth.

What about the marks?

Greets, Dirk


01 Oct 2004 12:42:35
Patrick Johnson
Re: How tight to stretch Simonis 860?

Me:
>>I'd like to have a table that made it easier to re-stretch
>>the cloth.

Dirk:
> What about the marks?

You had to drag logic into this, huh?

I only like a small dot on the spot anyway, so it wouldn't be a problem
for me - just get some GreenOut for the old one.

pj
chgo



01 Oct 2004 09:36:47
Ron Shepard
Re: How tight to stretch Simonis 860?

In article <%gc7d.12448$Qv5.3111@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com >,
Patrick Johnson <patrick.johnsonREMOVE@THIScomcast.net > wrote:

> Me:
> >>I'd like to have a table that made it easier to re-stretch
> >>the cloth.
>
> Dirk:
> > What about the marks?
>
> You had to drag logic into this, huh?
>
> I only like a small dot on the spot anyway, so it wouldn't be a problem
> for me - just get some GreenOut for the old one.

The cloth usually wears out on commercial tables and needs to be
replaced once a year or so, so this is not an issue there. Cloth
does not wear as fast on a home table, and it might be used for five
or 10 years before being replaced. During that time the cloth goes
through many seasons and many cycles of hot and cold, humid and dry,
the wife folds a lot of laundry on it, the kids spill soda on it,
and so on. A home owner might want to restretch the cloth every two
or three years. It is more common to restretch cloth on a home
table than on a commercial table, so it seems to make sense to cover
the table in the first place to make this easier in the future.
Besides not trimming the cloth so close to the staples, what else
could be done to facilitate future restretching?

Regarding the marks and lines, one answer is to make these marks
with a pencil. These marks wear out after a few months and need to
be redone, but when the cloth is restretched you want them to
disappear anyway, so this is an asset. The marks include the
longstring, the triangle outline, and possibly the headstring. I
personally like to use stick-on spots for the footspot, headspot,
and centerspot, but some players prefer pencil marks for some or all
of these marks too.

$.02 -Ron Shepard


01 Oct 2004 14:56:20
JohnA(Kent,WA)
Re: How tight to stretch Simonis 860?


"Ron Shepard" wrote

> Besides not trimming the cloth so close to the staples, what else
> could be done to facilitate future restretching?

How about having a groove routed out on the table frame. Like they do on the
rails for the feather strips. As the cloth stretches after a year or so,
remove the rails and install feather strips to stretch a little more.


--
JohnA(Kent,WA)







01 Oct 2004 18:23:32
Patrick Johnson
Re: How tight to stretch Simonis 860?

Ron:
>>Besides not trimming the cloth so close to the staples, what else
>>could be done to facilitate future restretching?

John:
> How about having a groove routed out on the table frame. Like they do on the
> rails for the feather strips. As the cloth stretches after a year or so,
> remove the rails and install feather strips to stretch a little more.

I thought of that too. Another big hassle would be removing and
replacing the rails. Any way around that? I've thought of a table with
rails that don't bolt onto the slate (this could look cool too) so you
could crawl underneath and pull the cloth without messing with the
rails. If the cloth was long enough you could attach it on the bottom
surface of the slate backing rather than on its edge.

Pat Johnson
Chicago



01 Oct 2004 13:17:27
Newsposts1
Re: How tight to stretch Simonis 860?

"Billy Bob" <billybobnospam@yahoo.com > wrote in message news:<2s1lu2F1es3leU1@uni-berlin.de>...

> How hard should you pull to stretch Simonis 860?

Here's a few comments:

- One of the keys is cutting the cloth right to give yourself enough
extra cloth to pull on to stretch. Don't leave enough room to get a
good grip, and you will never be able to stretch it enough or with
even pressure.

- The rails are much harder to do than the bed cloth. Though a single
expert can do rails well by themselves, the amateur will need an extra
set of hands to do it well. Not getting the rails tight will make the
table play extremely short, probably shorter than old cloth installed
properly.

- If stretching force is not provided evenly, then the cloth will
tear. If you tear the cloth using just your hands, then you aren't
pulling properly (e.g., not distributing the stretching force). If you
tear the cloth using a stretching tool, then you are pulling too hard.

- If you're stretching it with your hands, then you are not going to
be able to stretch it tight enough, especially with the rails. You
will need a stretching tool to stretch the cloth tightly and hold it
in place while it is stapled. The recommended tool is a large vise
grip clamp with a thin strip of soft rubber glued to the jaws.

- I've never done a table but I've watch dozens done, both right and
wrong. The two best mechanics I've seen are Mr. Ok from NYC and In Soo
Park from LA.


02 Oct 2004 01:43:06
sorackem
Re: How tight to stretch Simonis 860?


"Newsposts1" <stevehegg@3cushion.com > wrote in message
news:52c1c1b1.0410011217.6bfcc120@posting.google.com...
> "Billy Bob" <billybobnospam@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:<2s1lu2F1es3leU1@uni-berlin.de >...
>
> > How hard should you pull to stretch Simonis 860?

> - The rails are much harder to do than the bed cloth. Though a single
> expert can do rails well by themselves, the amateur will need an extra
> set of hands to do it well. Not getting the rails tight will make the
> table play extremely short, probably shorter than old cloth installed
> properly.
>

Now this has got me curious.
The rails on my BBC play short. It was always my impression that the rubber
was just old.
I've no idea if it is the original rubber. The table is approximately 95
years old (the best I can tell).
It may in fact be both, not tight enough cloth on the rails and old rubber.

Is there a way to gauge how old and ineffective the rubber is becoming?
Does the rubber crystallize after a fashion or just lose it's elasticity in
a way that is difficult to tell by simply pushing into it?

A very hard hit cue ball will travel the length and back twice.
Simonis 860, 9ft table. I'm very happy with the stretch on the field,
although I don't recall the installer using anything but his hands and knee.

-Brian




02 Oct 2004 10:07:35
Patrick Johnson
Re: How tight to stretch Simonis 860?

sorackem wrote:

> The rails on my BBC play short. It was always my impression that the rubber
> was just old.

I always thought old rubber played long. You lose cross-table velocity,
right?

(No hidden meanings, I swear...)
Pat Johnson
Chicago



02 Oct 2004 09:30:06
sorackem
Re: How tight to stretch Simonis 860?


"Patrick Johnson" <patrick.johnsonREMOVE@THIScomcast.net > wrote in message
news:HJGdnb8vPfOlWcPcRVn-rg@comcast.com...
> sorackem wrote:
>
> > The rails on my BBC play short. It was always my impression that the
rubber
> > was just old.
>
> I always thought old rubber played long. You lose cross-table velocity,
> right?

Makes sense.... I gotta get me a good mechanic out here soon.
>
> (No hidden meanings, I swear...)

I'm trustin' ya this time Pat..

> Pat Johnson
> Chicago
>

Thanks..

-Brian




02 Oct 2004 23:14:05
Nixon, D.
Re: How tight to stretch Simonis 860?


"Ron Shepard" <ron-shepard@NOSPAM.comcast.net > wrote in message
news:ron-shepard-CCE1BD.09364701102004@comcast.dca.giganews.com...
> In article <%gc7d.12448$Qv5.3111@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com>,
> Patrick Johnson <patrick.johnsonREMOVE@THIScomcast.net> wrote:
>
> > Me:
> > >>I'd like to have a table that made it easier to re-stretch
> > >>the cloth.
> >
> > Dirk:
> > > What about the marks?
> >
> > You had to drag logic into this, huh?
> >
> > I only like a small dot on the spot anyway, so it wouldn't be a problem
> > for me - just get some GreenOut for the old one.
>
> The cloth usually wears out on commercial tables and needs to be
> replaced once a year or so, so this is not an issue there. Cloth
> does not wear as fast on a home table, and it might be used for five
> or 10 years before being replaced. During that time the cloth goes
> through many seasons and many cycles of hot and cold, humid and dry,
> the wife folds a lot of laundry on it, the kids spill soda on it,
> and so on. A home owner might want to restretch the cloth every two
> or three years. It is more common to restretch cloth on a home
> table than on a commercial table, so it seems to make sense to cover
> the table in the first place to make this easier in the future.
> Besides not trimming the cloth so close to the staples, what else
> could be done to facilitate future restretching?
>
> Regarding the marks and lines, one answer is to make these marks
> with a pencil. These marks wear out after a few months and need to
> be redone, but when the cloth is restretched you want them to
> disappear anyway, so this is an asset. The marks include the
> longstring, the triangle outline, and possibly the headstring. I
> personally like to use stick-on spots for the footspot, headspot,
> and centerspot, but some players prefer pencil marks for some or all
> of these marks too.
>
> $.02 -Ron Shepard
=======================================================

With a 9 ft. table and good cushions, an easy way to determine if the cloth
is stretched tight enough is to try to drive the cue ball 9 or 10 cushions.
If that can be done, and there are no obvious creases of loose spots, then
that Simonis 860 is TIGHT !!

For some reason or other table mechanics with little or no experience with
Simonis will always screw up in doing the sides of the side pockets. Never
fails.

McDave
========================================================







02 Oct 2004 19:38:57
Newsposts1
Re: How tight to stretch Simonis 860?

Good thread to put in a plug for a friend.

Mazin Shooni is the House Pro up at World Class Billiards in Peabody,
Mass, about 30 minutes north of Boston.

He is a good mechanic and can do pool and carom tables with any kind
of cloth you want. He is doing a lot of business in the Boston area.

http://www.billiardsexpert.com/billiardsmassachusetts.htm


03 Oct 2004 04:10:45
Jim Eales
Re: How tight to stretch Simonis 860?

For some reason or other table mechanics with little or no experience with
Simonis will always screw up in doing the sides of the side pockets. Never
fails.

McDave
_________________________________________________

The place I play has 12 tables, two with Simonis 860 and both of them have
wrinkles/gathers around the side pockets. Is there anything that can be
done about that?

Jim Eales





02 Oct 2004 23:24:10
David Hakala
Re: How tight to stretch Simonis 860?


"Ron Shepard"

> the wife folds a lot of laundry on it, the kids spill soda on it, and so
> on.

Ron, surely you didn't stay married or retain custody under THESE
circumstances? :-)

David Hakala




03 Oct 2004 05:24:46
Nixon, D.
Re: How tight to stretch Simonis 860?


"Jim Eales" <jeales@insightbb.com > wrote in message
news:9ZK7d.402796$8_6.122339@attbi_s04...
> For some reason or other table mechanics with little or no experience with
> Simonis will always screw up in doing the sides of the side pockets.
Never
> fails.
>
> McDave
> _________________________________________________
>
> The place I play has 12 tables, two with Simonis 860 and both of them have
> wrinkles/gathers around the side pockets. Is there anything that can be
> done about that?
>
> Jim Eales
======================================================

Certainly. Take rails off and do them correctly.

Some have tried trimming a small amount of the cloth away and, using a tiny
bit of epoxy cement to fold/attach the cloth to the side of the pocket.
That's not really the way to do it but might be better than doing nothing.

I'm not an expert at doing Simonis but I suspect there is someone in this
group who can better answer your question.

McDave in McMaryland
============================================




03 Oct 2004 08:53:44
Play4aBuck
Re: How tight to stretch Simonis 860?


Patrick Johnson wrote in message ...
>
>I always thought old rubber played long. You lose cross-table velocity,
>right?

Well, it's about 3:55 AM, so I'm not responsible for anything I'm about to
say.

I think your right you would lose c-t velocity, but I'm thinking
(barely...barely thinking that is).... that the old rubber is softer (no pun
intended) and cups the ball deeper? Think about how a hard shot will bank
short.....is this due to the deeper cupping? Do old rails become softer or
harder? (I don't know.)

I thought the table I was playing on the other day was banking long. The
table had new cloth, recovered rails and polished/clean balls. (I know I am
adding more variables here.)

Another thought/question... will the height of the rails/size of the balls
affect the horizontal rebound of the ball?

Cheers,
Jim <<=== Not sleepy.......and not going to take any more "Super Energy"
pills after 12PM,.... or drink Diet Pepsi until midnight ever again! I
slept so much better when I drank beer!





03 Oct 2004 08:48:42
Donald Tees
Re: How tight to stretch Simonis 860?

David Hakala wrote:
> "Ron Shepard"
>
>
>>the wife folds a lot of laundry on it, the kids spill soda on it, and so
>>on.
>
>
> Ron, surely you didn't stay married or retain custody under THESE
> circumstances? :-)
>
> David Hakala
>
>

My thoughts exactly ... there are civilized limits.

Donald



03 Oct 2004 08:54:17
Donald Tees
Re: How tight to stretch Simonis 860?

Play4aBuck wrote:
>
> Another thought/question... will the height of the rails/size of the balls
> affect the horizontal rebound of the ball?
>

Absolutely. Playing with pool balls on a snooker table is a good way to
break windows, and wear out cloth. The balls jump every time they hit a
rail, and tend to bounce back down onto the table about 6 inces from the
rail.

I notice you said "horizontal rebound" so that might not be what you are
asking ...

Donald



03 Oct 2004 17:04:33
Play4aBuck
Re: How tight to stretch Simonis 860?


Donald Tees wrote in message <4DS7d.49$jj2.18997@news20.bellglobal.com >...
>I notice you said "horizontal rebound" so that might not be what you are
>asking ...
>

When I said "horiztonal rebound" (for lack of better words at the time)
....I meant the angle of rebound when the ball stays parallel with the plane
of the table surface. To rephrase my question, if a rail was installed too
high would the balls bank short?

Cheers,
Jim




03 Oct 2004 20:04:10
Ricky W. King
Re: How tight to stretch Simonis 860?

While I am not an expert in recovering pool tables by any means.......the
most helpful thing I have ever came across that answered most any question
on table recovering is a book supposedly authored by Minnesota Fats ( The
exact title escapes me at the moment ). Anyway.....there is a very good
section on table recovering and table maintainence.

BTW........ If doing a internet search for the book.......keep in mind that
Minnesota fats real name was Rudolph Wanderone. A search may need to made
using both names.




04 Oct 2004 17:30:32
Bob Jewett
Re: How tight to stretch Simonis 860?

Play4aBuck <Play4aBuck@nospam.yahoo.com > wrote:

> ... Think about how a hard shot will bank
> short.....is this due to the deeper cupping?

No, it's not. Unfortunately, Koehler stated that it is. See the
August 2004 issue of Billiards Digest.

--

Bob Jewett
http://www.sfbilliards.com/