28 Nov 2005 17:01:00
joewihit
Name the 14 people Willie Mosconi beat to win his 14 world championships.

Hello All,
Willie Mosconi
Born: June 27, 1913 14-time world champion from 1941-57. Died:
Sept. 12, 1993

Is there a person on this earth, or book that could provide the
names of the 14 people Willie Mosconi beat to win his 14 world
championships?? I've heard from some pro's that the reason he won so
many world championships was that the played no-name players and the
second reason was that his championship coinisided with a slump in
pool, low interest and low number of players. I am trying to find
facts and dispute myths over hear-say. Any ideas?

You would think that the BCA Hall of Fame would have this information
but they don't. Actually the Hall of Fame is a wonderful "wall" with
pictures of great people, but its definetly not a pool library or pool
museum.

Question:
By name, WHO are the 14 people Willie Mosconi beat (or played against)
to win his 14 world championships. Dates and places would be GREAT.

BIG THANKS
Sincerely,
joewihit
pool.trickshots at juno.com



28 Nov 2005 20:13:10
Dan White
Re: Name the 14 people Willie Mosconi beat to win his 14 world championships.

"joewihit" <pool.trickshots@juno.com > wrote in message
news:1133226060.671435.318660@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> Hello All,
> Willie Mosconi
> Born: June 27, 1913 14-time world champion from 1941-57. Died:
> Sept. 12, 1993
>
> Is there a person on this earth, or book that could provide the
> names of the 14 people Willie Mosconi beat to win his 14 world
> championships?? I've heard from some pro's that the reason he won so
> many world championships was that the played no-name players and the
> second reason was that his championship coinisided with a slump in
> pool, low interest and low number of players. I am trying to find
> facts and dispute myths over hear-say. Any ideas?

Mosconi was beating Greenleaf when he was barely 20. What more do you need
to know? It is obvious that these people never saw Mosconi play, or have
some personal reason for not liking him. You can't argue reasonably with
people like that, and no stat in the world will change their minds. I don't
have the data on the 14, but it might be included in his autobiography.

dwhite




28 Nov 2005 21:13:31
joewihit
Re: Name the 14 people Willie Mosconi beat to win his 14 world championships.

THANKS DAN. Its a start. I'll have to look harder for his
autobiography.

Thanks again,

Sincerely,
joe



29 Nov 2005 08:23:19
bb
Re: Name the 14 people Willie Mosconi beat to win his 14 world championships.

Here is an interesting article dated 12/5/1942 about Willie Mosconi...

http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/sports/year_in_sports/12.05.html



"joewihit" <pool.trickshots@juno.com > wrote in message
news:1133226060.671435.318660@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> Hello All,
> Willie Mosconi
> Born: June 27, 1913 14-time world champion from 1941-57. Died:
> Sept. 12, 1993
>
> Is there a person on this earth, or book that could provide the
> names of the 14 people Willie Mosconi beat to win his 14 world
> championships?? I've heard from some pro's that the reason he won so
> many world championships was that the played no-name players and the
> second reason was that his championship coinisided with a slump in
> pool, low interest and low number of players. I am trying to find
> facts and dispute myths over hear-say. Any ideas?
>
> You would think that the BCA Hall of Fame would have this information
> but they don't. Actually the Hall of Fame is a wonderful "wall" with
> pictures of great people, but its definetly not a pool library or pool
> museum.
>
> Question:
> By name, WHO are the 14 people Willie Mosconi beat (or played against)
> to win his 14 world championships. Dates and places would be GREAT.
>
> BIG THANKS
> Sincerely,
> joewihit
> pool.trickshots at juno.com
>




29 Nov 2005 05:33:36
Billy
Re: Name the 14 people Willie Mosconi beat to win his 14 world championships.


joewihit wrote:
> Hello All,
> Willie Mosconi
> Born: June 27, 1913 14-time world champion from 1941-57. Died:
> Sept. 12, 1993
>
> Question:
> By name, WHO are the 14 people Willie Mosconi beat (or played against)
> to win his 14 world championships. Dates and places would be GREAT.
>

Looks like you have to put on your Sherlock Holmes hat again, Joe.
According to the article that BB posted, it says he won 15, not 14.
Now, doesn't THAT piss you off even more?? (whatever # he won...he was
still putting whup ass on the greatest players out there at the
time...week after week).

..................................Billy



29 Nov 2005 08:01:17
Re: Name the 14 people Willie Mosconi beat to win his 14 world championships.

nAME 14 people you have beat, dates and places would be great.
i'VE SEEN HIM RUN 300 3 TIMES, HAVE YOU?
FL



29 Nov 2005 08:25:57
Re: Name the 14 people Willie Mosconi beat to win his 14 world championships.

Andrew Ponzi
Edwin Rudolph
Irving Crane
Jimmy Caras

That's a start ...



29 Nov 2005 08:43:05
Re: Name the 14 people Willie Mosconi beat to win his 14 world championships.

Lauri



29 Nov 2005 17:11:40
Ratchet
Re: Name the 14 people Willie Mosconi beat to win his 14 world championships.

snapshot9scott@cox.net wrote:
> Andrew Ponzi
> Edwin Rudolph
> Irving Crane
> Jimmy Caras
>
> That's a start ...
>
wimpy Lassiter ???

Cowboy Jimmy Moore ???
or something??


29 Nov 2005 19:48:13
Ricky W. King
Re: Name the 14 people Willie Mosconi beat to win his 14 world championships.

While I cannot name the 14 people being asked....if my foggy memory serves
me correct....one of his more notable losses was to Rudolph Wanderone. I am
thinking that they only played two or three well publicized matches and I
think ( but am not sure ) that one of his losses was to Fats.

I seem to remember reading an article about that, but I could be wrong.
Possinly FL, Bob Jewett, or one of the older people who actually have seen
Mosconi could tell you more and whether or not Even if I am recalling
correctly or not.

Ricky W. King




29 Nov 2005 16:56:51
Re: Name the 14 people Willie Mosconi beat to win his 14 world championships.

No you are not sir, fatty did not play for tin cups, only for the cash,
ah yes, a tin cup he could buy at any pawn shop my boy. He never
entered a tournament. Bozos like willie Mosss kone Knee, played for
them because he could not play for a half of a pop. Willie Moss kone
knee, he could go out to times square at noon with a can of gasoline
and dump it on his head and light a match and could not draw a crowd of
one, ah yes. Not even the flies would show up later. All I do is play
for the cash my boy.....

Fatty played willie many times on TV and did poorly. He was not even
in Willies league. He was a great one pocket player in the 3o's to the
60's but by the 80's and TV the poor guy could not run 3 balls. It was
like watching satchmo on TV, he could not play a lick then either.
Fatty only won once which was a short 7 ball race to 5 which went hill
hill and Willie dogged a straight in shot down the rail for match to
lose. It was in Vegas and I figure he dumped for some serious cash
betting on fatty to win.
Fatty was my teacher and friend, just telling it like it was. Willie
was the best and king of pool, he was also like Sigel, pools greatest
prick and asshole. Everyone loved Fatty, everyone hated willie.



29 Nov 2005 22:38:38
Ron Shepard
Re: Name the 14 people Willie Mosconi beat to win his 14 world championships.

In article <dmissb$74ae$1@news3.infoave.net >,
"Ricky W. King" <rwking@pbtcomm.net > wrote:

> While I cannot name the 14 people being asked....if my foggy memory serves
> me correct....one of his more notable losses was to Rudolph Wanderone.

It would surely surprise me if Rudolph Wanderone ever took second
place in a 14.1 tournament of any kind, much less one of the
national/world championship tournaments. From everything I have
heard and read, Fats played about as well as the average RSB poster.
Anyone have any info to the contrary?

$.02 -Ron Shepard


30 Nov 2005 06:34:11
Dick
Re: Name the 14 people Willie Mosconi beat to win his 14 world championships.

All that I have heard about him is that he played a bit better than that.
He was about a real good Shortstop. He was a very good bank pool player and
supposedly played one pocket pretty good. He usually matched up wisely and
was a good gambler. He was in no way in the same class as any of the great
players who's names are seldom mentioned or remembered. He rode his mouth
and his wit to much higher accomplishments than should be adorned on him. He
was the greatest Hustler of all time, if you didn't believe it, all you had
to do was ask him.
Dick

--
Richard H. Neighbors
Building and repairing fine billiard cues for real pool players at
affordable prices.
Over 35 years exp. Located in Cincinnati OH
ph.# 513 233-7499
e-mail dicky@dickiecues.com
web site http://www.dickiecues.com
"Ron Shepard" <ron-shepard@NOSPAM.comcast.net > wrote in message
news:ron-shepard-508BFA.22383829112005@comcast.dca.giganews.com...
> In article <dmissb$74ae$1@news3.infoave.net>,
> "Ricky W. King" <rwking@pbtcomm.net> wrote:
>
>> While I cannot name the 14 people being asked....if my foggy memory
>> serves
>> me correct....one of his more notable losses was to Rudolph Wanderone.
>
> It would surely surprise me if Rudolph Wanderone ever took second
> place in a 14.1 tournament of any kind, much less one of the
> national/world championship tournaments. From everything I have
> heard and read, Fats played about as well as the average RSB poster.
> Anyone have any info to the contrary?
>
> $.02 -Ron Shepard




30 Nov 2005 06:01:44
Re: Name the 14 people Willie Mosconi beat to win his 14 world championships.

, Fats played about as well as the average RSB poster.
Anyone have any info to the contrary?

$.02 -Ron Shepard

I do and that statement was absolutely obsurd. The average RSBer cant
run 3 fookin balls to save his soul, let alone a rack. I have seen
fatty run 2 or 3 racks one handed while talking to a crowd in the late
60's. I saw him when he could still play. He was teaching and playing
with me in the late 50's. He was a great player and took out the top
stick for in todays money $150,000, Richey Florence at Johnston City
when nobody else could beat the kid, fatty busted him flat for every
dime. I was at all these events during the 60's. He did not play
14.1, willies game and he did not play for tin cups. He played for
cash which Willie could not because of his contracts with Brunswick.
Fatty was a great player. He just was not in Mosconi's league, but
then, only 3 or 4 were. Dick, he made millions just running his mouth,
how many 9 ballers today starve trying to run racks. They should
perhaps try running their mouths and entertaining which is where the
real money is.



30 Nov 2005 09:28:34
Jim Eales
Re: Name the 14 people Willie Mosconi beat to win his 14 world championships.

World 14.1 Titles won by Willie Mosconi
From 2003 edition of
"Billiards: The Official Rules & Record Book"
Month Year Runner-Up
May 1941 Andrew Ponzi
Dec 1942 Andrew Ponzi
Mar 1944 Andrew Ponzi
Feb 1945 Ralph Greenleaf
Mar 1946 Jimmy Caras
Nov 1946 Irving Crane
May 1947 Irving Crane
Nov 1947 Jimmy Caras
Mar 1948 Andrew Ponzi
Feb 1950 Irving Crane
Jan 1951 Irving Crane
Feb 1951 Irving Crane
Apr 1952 Irving Crane
Mar 1953 Joe Procita
Mar 1955 Joe Procita
Dec 1955 Irving Crane
Feb 1956 Jimmy Caras
Mar 1956 Jimmy Moore
Apr 1956 Irving Crane

Jim Eales




30 Nov 2005 14:54:14
Studeman
Re: Name the 14 people Willie Mosconi beat to win his 14 world championships.

joewihit of pool.trickshots at juno.com wrote:

>I've heard from some pro's that the reason he won so
>many world championships was that the played no-name players and the
>second reason was that his championship coinisided with a slump in
>pool, low interest and low number of players. I am trying to find
>facts and dispute myths over hear-say. Any ideas?
>


Jim Eales took the time to research the answer.....

>World 14.1 Titles won by Willie Mosconi
>From 2003 edition of
>"Billiards: The Official Rules & Record Book"
>Month Year Runner-Up
>May 1941 Andrew Ponzi
>Dec 1942 Andrew Ponzi
>Mar 1944 Andrew Ponzi
>Feb 1945 Ralph Greenleaf
>Mar 1946 Jimmy Caras
>Nov 1946 Irving Crane
>May 1947 Irving Crane
>Nov 1947 Jimmy Caras
>Mar 1948 Andrew Ponzi
>Feb 1950 Irving Crane
>Jan 1951 Irving Crane
>Feb 1951 Irving Crane
>Apr 1952 Irving Crane
>Mar 1953 Joe Procita
>Mar 1955 Joe Procita
>Dec 1955 Irving Crane
>Feb 1956 Jimmy Caras
>Mar 1956 Jimmy Moore
>Apr 1956 Irving Crane
>
>Jim Eales
>
>
I think Joewihit is hanging around the wrong pros.... there are a few
good players on that list :-)
Joe- Thank Jim for the ammunition..... !!!!

Ray



30 Nov 2005 10:38:39
Ratchet
Re: Name the 14 people Willie Mosconi beat to win his 14 world championships.

Jim Eales wrote:

> World 14.1 Titles won by Willie Mosconi
> From 2003 edition of
> "Billiards: The Official Rules & Record Book"
> Month Year Runner-Up
> May 1941 Andrew Ponzi
> Dec 1942 Andrew Ponzi
> Mar 1944 Andrew Ponzi
> Feb 1945 Ralph Greenleaf
> Mar 1946 Jimmy Caras
> Nov 1946 Irving Crane
> May 1947 Irving Crane
> Nov 1947 Jimmy Caras
> Mar 1948 Andrew Ponzi
> Feb 1950 Irving Crane
> Jan 1951 Irving Crane
> Feb 1951 Irving Crane
> Apr 1952 Irving Crane
> Mar 1953 Joe Procita
> Mar 1955 Joe Procita
> Dec 1955 Irving Crane
> Feb 1956 Jimmy Caras
> Mar 1956 Jimmy Moore
> Apr 1956 Irving Crane
>
> Jim Eales
>
>


Well I disrembered Lassiter !!But I got Jimmy Moore right ..

Was Wimpy ever a contender ? Or was this not his forte' ??

Ratchet -


30 Nov 2005 09:41:05
Ron Shepard
Re: Name the 14 people Willie Mosconi beat to win his 14 world championships.

In article <DJbjf.147727$tD4.64699@tornado.ohiordc.rr.com >,
"Dick" <dicky@dickiecues.com > wrote:

[Regarding Minnesota Fats...]

> All that I have heard about him is that he played a bit better than that.
> He was about a real good Shortstop.

Do you know what his high run in 14.1 was? How many 9-ball racks
would he be expected typically to string together?

From various comments that I've heard and read, I would guess that
the answer to the first question is somewhere in the 50-75 range,
and the answer to the second question is 1 or 2. If this is
correct, then I think that puts him somewhere in the middle of the
skill range here in RSB. I would not know, I never saw him play,
even on TV. But at least this puts in perspective why his addition
to the BCA Hall of Fame was so controversial, and why so many
players take offense when his name is even mentioned in the same
sentence as Mosconi.

$.02 -Ron Shepard


30 Nov 2005 07:44:12
Re: Name the 14 people Willie Mosconi beat to win his 14 world championships.

Jimmy Moore IMHO was better than Mosconi but I don't think he ever beat
him in anything major. He was like Efren, the best player but could
not put it away under the lights in the finals. Lassiter was mostly a
money player and did not come into his own until the mid 60's in
Johnston city where is dominated in 9 ball, straight and one pocket.
Mosconi's era was 41 to the mid 50's. Willie retired in 57. Mosconis
main battles was against Caras, Crane, Greenleaf, Ponzi, Rudolph,
Bennie Allen, people like that.



30 Nov 2005 07:54:49
Re: Name the 14 people Willie Mosconi beat to win his 14 world championships.

Ron, let me get this straight, you think all you bozos here on RSB all
can run 75 in straight and a couple of racks of 9 ball any time. You
are nuts, have been playing on the rail and in your mind for way too
long and have bought into your own bull she-yit. You and your bozos
are being compared to Fatty, a legend, by you and saying he ranks below
you nobody no talent done nothing post hole diggers who in reality cant
run 3 fookin balls?

I don't know what you are smoking in the back of your lab but dude, it
has to be some real primo she=-yit so fedex me a pound of it overnight
COD. I want some, then I will be a century run out player like you too
Ron.

Scottie, Beam me up now before I die laughing at Ron.

The players who take offense to him are stupid, do a pool survey now,
over a decade after he has passed and ask 100 sportwriters who are the
main pool stars of all time and you get 2 names from them, 99% of the
time. In this order, Minnesota Fats and Willie Mosconi. The rest of
these people, they never heard of. What does that tell you?? They
never heard of Efren. Efren who?



30 Nov 2005 15:43:52
Jim Eales
Re: Name the 14 people Willie Mosconi beat to win his 14 world championships.


"Ratchet" <Ratchet@greenapplenot.com > wrote in message
news:Od6dnb6EqqziWhDenZ2dnUVZ_smdnZ2d@greenapple.com...
> Well I disrembered Lassiter !!But I got Jimmy Moore right ..
>
> Was Wimpy ever a contender ? Or was this not his forte' ??
>
> Ratchet -

Lassiter won 7 of the next 10 World Championships. He beat Jimmy Moore
twice, Babe Cranfield once, Cicero Murphy twice, and Jack Breit twice. He
then lost to Irving Crane.

Jim Eales




30 Nov 2005 18:40:32
Ratchet
Re: Name the 14 people Willie Mosconi beat to win his 14 world championships.

Jim Eales wrote:
> "Ratchet" <Ratchet@greenapplenot.com> wrote in message
> news:Od6dnb6EqqziWhDenZ2dnUVZ_smdnZ2d@greenapple.com...
>
>>Well I disrembered Lassiter !!But I got Jimmy Moore right ..
>>
>>Was Wimpy ever a contender ? Or was this not his forte' ??
>>
>>Ratchet -
>
>
> Lassiter won 7 of the next 10 World Championships. He beat Jimmy Moore
> twice, Babe Cranfield once, Cicero Murphy twice, and Jack Breit twice. He
> then lost to Irving Crane.
>
> Jim Eales
>
>
I remembered (vaguely)wimpy had strung some big wins together But I dont
know in which kind of games ,ie: 9 ball ,14.1 and so on or the time
frames or years he done so !

Ratchet-


30 Nov 2005 21:53:02
Ricky W. King
Re: Name the 14 people Willie Mosconi beat to win his 14 world championships.

So FL....If I understand your reply to my post correctly.....Mosconi did
indeed lose at least one match to Fats?

I admittedly was not sure if I remembered reading the article correctly or
not.....but judging by your reply....I would think that even this 40 plus yr
old pool fan hasn't quite lost all his marbles by recalling the article
correctly.

Granted....A good many of the old marbles have gone by the wayside......but
I ain't totally out there ready for the loony bin just yet.

Ricky W. King
( Who has occasionally run 3 balls.....but is by no means a pro.....and it
does not matter if I get so bad that I can barely hit the balls......I will
still play the greatest games in the world. )




01 Dec 2005 03:22:48
Dick
Re: Name the 14 people Willie Mosconi beat to win his 14 world championships.

I don't know about 14.1 as supposedly he seldom played the game. One-hole
and bank were his main games. Those who say he shouldn't be in the same
sentence with the much greater players are correct as far as shooting
ability. He however did much for the game itself by keeping himself and the
game in the spotlight thru his constant monologue. He played successfully,
although not winning at the Johnson City Jamborees.
There is a story that he often used to call Mosconi and challenge him to
one-hole games. Mosconi always refused for a couple of reasons, 1, he never
played one-hole and most importantly #2 is that he was under a very
lucrative contract with Brunswick Billiards as a sort of ambassador of
pool, going around giving exhibitions on Brunswick products. This contract
stated that he had to keep a clean image and no gambling matches were
allowed. Fats, supposedly got 2,000.00 from his backer and went to
Philadelphia were Masonic was living then. They played one-hole and after
two days Fats called his backer and said that Masonic played horrible
one-pocket and never had a chance and would he send some more money. The
backer inquired "If he plays so bad why do you need more money?" Fats reply
was that he doesn't even know the rules or any one-hole shots, he just makes
a ball and then runs out and he was sure he could beat anyone who doesn't
know he's supposed to play safe.
Dick
--
Richard H. Neighbors
Building and repairing fine billiard cues for real pool players at
affordable prices.
Over 35 years exp. Located in Cincinnati OH
ph.# 513 233-7499
e-mail dicky@dickiecues.com
web site http://www.dickiecues.com
"Ron Shepard" <ron-shepard@NOSPAM.comcast.net > wrote in message
news:ron-shepard-66FDDD.09410530112005@comcast.dca.giganews.com...
> In article <DJbjf.147727$tD4.64699@tornado.ohiordc.rr.com>,
> "Dick" <dicky@dickiecues.com> wrote:
>
> [Regarding Minnesota Fats...]
>
>> All that I have heard about him is that he played a bit better than
>> that.
>> He was about a real good Shortstop.
>
> Do you know what his high run in 14.1 was? How many 9-ball racks
> would he be expected typically to string together?
>
> From various comments that I've heard and read, I would guess that
> the answer to the first question is somewhere in the 50-75 range,
> and the answer to the second question is 1 or 2. If this is
> correct, then I think that puts him somewhere in the middle of the
> skill range here in RSB. I would not know, I never saw him play,
> even on TV. But at least this puts in perspective why his addition
> to the BCA Hall of Fame was so controversial, and why so many
> players take offense when his name is even mentioned in the same
> sentence as Mosconi.
>
> $.02 -Ron Shepard




30 Nov 2005 19:26:03
Re: Name the 14 people Willie Mosconi beat to win his 14 world championships.

The world championships ended when Mosconi retired and the BCA went out
of business and pool died all around the late 50's, it all ceased to
exist. The Johnston City events did not begin until really 63 and ran
until 72. The BCA did not return until 66 when they put on the US
Open. There were no real world events then. It was nothing but 100
hustlers who got together for a month until all was killed off gambling
with one left.

It was the championship of the hustlers world which was winning an all
around of one pocket, 9 ball and straight. Lassiter dominated in that
era. All the previous tin cup champions like Mosconi and Caras were
retired playing nothing but exhibitions. Crane did come in but did not
win. Yes rickey, Fatty did beat mosconi one time on TV.



01 Dec 2005 01:10:31
Donald Tees
Re: Name the 14 people Willie Mosconi beat to win his 14 world championships.

Ricky W. King wrote:
> So FL....If I understand your reply to my post correctly.....Mosconi did
> indeed lose at least one match to Fats?
>
> I admittedly was not sure if I remembered reading the article correctly or
> not.....but judging by your reply....I would think that even this 40 plus yr
> old pool fan hasn't quite lost all his marbles by recalling the article
> correctly.
>
> Granted....A good many of the old marbles have gone by the wayside......but
> I ain't totally out there ready for the loony bin just yet.
>
> Ricky W. King
> ( Who has occasionally run 3 balls.....but is by no means a pro.....and it
> does not matter if I get so bad that I can barely hit the balls......I will
> still play the greatest games in the world. )
>
>

I can juggle three pool balls. If you learn it with bare feet, it is
quite good exercise.

Donald
;<)


03 Dec 2005 01:01:24
Re: Name the 14 people Willie Mosconi beat to win his 14 world championships.

Congratulations, that wins the billiard historian prize. I was
wondering when the H someone was going to answer that. I noticed it's
a Purdue grad who provided the correct answer. Much to his credit, he
did it for free, too. I wouldn't have, although I could have looked it
up, but I charge by the hour, like a lot of billiards instructors do.
If we're going to play "Jeopardy" on RSB, why not offer some prize
money? Make it worth our time. In all fairness, he's probably also a
better pool shot than I am, but that may not last forever. On RSB, you
never say "never". You just say "plonk", like Jerkson does. Or is
that "Johnson"?



03 Dec 2005 08:42:34
Re: Name the 14 people Willie Mosconi beat to win his 14 world championships.

There is such a contest right now going on at www.poolchat.net
So if you wish a contest, there it is. Cue balls, racks, cues, and
DVD's are being given away in the last 3 days and this continues next
week. I gave away a $3000 table free at the Allen Hopkins Expo, I may
do that again on pool chat.

www.fastlarrypool.com



06 Dec 2005 04:20:04
Tim Miller
Re: Name the 14 people Willie Mosconi beat to win his 14 world championships.

Fatty got 2nd place behind Joey Spaeth in the 1962 Columbus Ga. one
pocket tournament. Not sure who else attended but I'm sure there were
some players there. Facts found at onepocket.org
I heard he played banks better than the average road player too.