05 Jul 2005 07:37:36
Mike Dalecki
Backweighting golf clubs

A couple years ago, I was playing around with the Balance Certified
backweighting system. It's an arrangement where you epoxy a sort of
screw-socket into the butt end of the shaft, use a special tool to cut a
hole in the end of the grip, and then screw various weights into the
butt end of the club to affect its feel.

Supposedly it also is supposed to affect the resonance of the club or
some such.

I installed such a beastie in my putter, and it does affect the feel of
the putter, and I can even use the interchangability of weights to
influence the putter's performance on fast and slow greens.

But these puppies are expensive. They sell them for irons and woods,
and if memory serves, at the time they cost in the area of $80 for a
driver, $50-70 for irons. My gosh, you can buy a darned fine set of
matched clubs for that. So I never went anywhere with it.

Today, in email, I received something from Golfsmith indicating a new
kind of grip that incorporates a weight port in the end of the grip.
It's the C-force grip from Golf Pride. You can see them here:

http://www.golfsmith.com/cm/products/181750?scode=ECM527NLE&tcode=ECM527NLE&lcode=ECM527NLE

The interesting thing is that they're only $12.95 per grip, and the
weights themselves range from $2.95 to $15.99 each. While not cheap,
that strikes me as being more reasonable.

My only concern with these grips is that, well, when it comes time to
replace the grip, you have to replace a $12.95 grip. I don't know if
there's any way to keep the weight system when you change grips (looks
like not, but until I try 'em, I can't tell for sure). For people who
change grips yearly or more often, this could become pricey.

It's not clear, either, what type of grip this is. Looks like a Tour
Velvet sort of pattern on it, and there apparently aren't other grip
options, at least not yet.

But it's sure not as pricey as the balance-certified approach (which is
more elegant in many ways, not the least of which is you keep the weight
system and simply switch the grip).

Finally, there's a way to really experiment here that could be very
interesting. Simply buy 2 or 3 grips, buy all three weights, install
them on your driver and a couple of irons, and then experiment with the
weights. When you find the right combo, simply epoxy a weight port in
the end of the shaft and then backweight with lead or tungsten to
whatever you determined worked best with the C-Force grip.

It would end up costing probably $65 or $70 to do this experimenting,
but for darksiders, that's trivial.

I imagine I'll be putting in an order to Golfsmith before long; I'll
probably pick up some of these and see how they do.

Mike
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Dalecki GCA Accredited Clubmaker http://clubdoctor.com
RSG-Wisconsin 2005 Pics: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2005/pics/
------------------------------------------------------------------------


05 Jul 2005 15:22:02
John Hill
Re: Backweighting golf clubs

"Mike Dalecki" <mike@dalecki.net > wrote in message
news:3ivd8lFniof4U1@individual.net...
>A couple years ago, I was playing around with the Balance Certified
>backweighting system. It's an arrangement where you epoxy a sort of
>screw-socket into the butt end of the shaft, use a special tool to cut a
>hole in the end of the grip, and then screw various weights into the butt
>end of the club to affect its feel.
>
> Supposedly it also is supposed to affect the resonance of the club or some
> such.
>
> I installed such a beastie in my putter, and it does affect the feel of
> the putter, and I can even use the interchangability of weights to
> influence the putter's performance on fast and slow greens.
>
> But these puppies are expensive. They sell them for irons and woods, and
> if memory serves, at the time they cost in the area of $80 for a driver,
> $50-70 for irons. My gosh, you can buy a darned fine set of matched clubs
> for that. So I never went anywhere with it.
>
> Today, in email, I received something from Golfsmith indicating a new kind
> of grip that incorporates a weight port in the end of the grip. It's the
> C-force grip from Golf Pride. You can see them here:
>
> http://www.golfsmith.com/cm/products/181750?scode=ECM527NLE&tcode=ECM527NLE&lcode=ECM527NLE
>
> The interesting thing is that they're only $12.95 per grip, and the
> weights themselves range from $2.95 to $15.99 each. While not cheap, that
> strikes me as being more reasonable.
>
> My only concern with these grips is that, well, when it comes time to
> replace the grip, you have to replace a $12.95 grip. I don't know if
> there's any way to keep the weight system when you change grips (looks
> like not, but until I try 'em, I can't tell for sure). For people who
> change grips yearly or more often, this could become pricey.
>
> It's not clear, either, what type of grip this is. Looks like a Tour
> Velvet sort of pattern on it, and there apparently aren't other grip
> options, at least not yet.
>
> But it's sure not as pricey as the balance-certified approach (which is
> more elegant in many ways, not the least of which is you keep the weight
> system and simply switch the grip).
>
> Finally, there's a way to really experiment here that could be very
> interesting. Simply buy 2 or 3 grips, buy all three weights, install them
> on your driver and a couple of irons, and then experiment with the
> weights. When you find the right combo, simply epoxy a weight port in the
> end of the shaft and then backweight with lead or tungsten to whatever you
> determined worked best with the C-Force grip.
>
> It would end up costing probably $65 or $70 to do this experimenting, but
> for darksiders, that's trivial.
>
> I imagine I'll be putting in an order to Golfsmith before long; I'll
> probably pick up some of these and see how they do.
>
> Mike
> --
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Mike Dalecki GCA Accredited Clubmaker http://clubdoctor.com
> RSG-Wisconsin 2005 Pics: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2005/pics/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not extremely relevant since my method was faulty, but some thoughts...

Before I knew that backweighting to tweak swingweight was a no-no, I did
this on a few sets for myself.
I used lead tape in strips under the grip.
Hard to change if it doesn't feel right, that's for sure.

My overall impression with the backweighting was that it helped feel the
release.
The unfortunate part for me at the time was that it ingrained a flip instead
of a true release.
I don't know if the backweighting promoted the flip or not, hard to tell.

I haven't done this for a few sets and, like you, have thought about trying
it again.
I seem to remember some weighted clips that one could buy to temporarily
attach to the butt of the grip.
I even thought about putting strips of lead tape over the grip to find the
right weight and then using http://www.golfsmith.com/products/322to set it
permanent.

Let me know how the C-Force grips work out for you.
I look forward to hearing someone else's opinion on backweighting.

jkh





05 Jul 2005 08:56:27
Annika1980
Re: Backweighting golf clubs

>Supposedly it also is supposed to affect the resonance of the club or
>some such.

Keyword: Supposedly.

These gimmicks are just that .... gimmicks.
You can't add enough weight to counterbalance a club since you are
gripping
the club very near the end of the shaft. And why would you want to?
You can't get around the fact that these weight systems simply add to
the
overall club weight. That's just gonna slow you down, which may in
fact help a few golfers. Even if you could put the majority of the
weight in the grip you'd lose feel.

Having said that, I must confess that I've tried it.
I've put heavy extensions and lead tape under the grip, you name it.
Now it might be worth a try for putters, assuming you don't like the
feel of your
current one. But then I'd ask, why not find a better feeling putter?

-Annika ---- > the skeptic



05 Jul 2005 18:16:13
MyQ
Re: Backweighting golf clubs

Mike Dalecki <mike@dalecki.net > wrote in
news:3ivd8lFniof4U1@individual.net:

> A couple years ago, I was playing around with the Balance Certified
> backweighting system. It's an arrangement where you epoxy a sort of
> screw-socket into the butt end of the shaft, use a special tool to cut
> a hole in the end of the grip, and then screw various weights into the
> butt end of the club to affect its feel.
>
> Supposedly it also is supposed to affect the resonance of the club or
> some such.
>
> I installed such a beastie in my putter, and it does affect the feel
> of the putter, and I can even use the interchangability of weights to
> influence the putter's performance on fast and slow greens.
>
> But these puppies are expensive. They sell them for irons and woods,
> and if memory serves, at the time they cost in the area of $80 for a
> driver, $50-70 for irons. My gosh, you can buy a darned fine set of
> matched clubs for that. So I never went anywhere with it.
>
> Today, in email, I received something from Golfsmith indicating a new
> kind of grip that incorporates a weight port in the end of the grip.
> It's the C-force grip from Golf Pride. You can see them here:
>
> http://www.golfsmith.com/cm/products/181750?scode=ECM527NLE&tcode=ECM52
> 7NLE&lcode=ECM527NLE
>
> The interesting thing is that they're only $12.95 per grip, and the
> weights themselves range from $2.95 to $15.99 each. While not cheap,
> that strikes me as being more reasonable.
>
> My only concern with these grips is that, well, when it comes time to
> replace the grip, you have to replace a $12.95 grip. I don't know if
> there's any way to keep the weight system when you change grips (looks
> like not, but until I try 'em, I can't tell for sure). For people who
> change grips yearly or more often, this could become pricey.
>
> It's not clear, either, what type of grip this is. Looks like a Tour
> Velvet sort of pattern on it, and there apparently aren't other grip
> options, at least not yet.
>
> But it's sure not as pricey as the balance-certified approach (which
> is more elegant in many ways, not the least of which is you keep the
> weight system and simply switch the grip).
>
> Finally, there's a way to really experiment here that could be very
> interesting. Simply buy 2 or 3 grips, buy all three weights, install
> them on your driver and a couple of irons, and then experiment with
> the weights. When you find the right combo, simply epoxy a weight
> port in the end of the shaft and then backweight with lead or tungsten
> to whatever you determined worked best with the C-Force grip.
>
> It would end up costing probably $65 or $70 to do this experimenting,
> but for darksiders, that's trivial.
>
> I imagine I'll be putting in an order to Golfsmith before long; I'll
> probably pick up some of these and see how they do.
>
> Mike

Mike, I got the same email. I really don't understand the theory or
benefit here. The swingweight is lowered (basically irrelevant, since
weight under hands), the MOI is raised slightly (versus 5" center) and
the total club weight is increased. I don't see why that would be
beneficial. I think I could relate to it as a benefit for a putter --
change of feel etc. -- but I can't say I could really explain why it
would help in a putter. The product description at the Golfsmith website
looks like a load of gimmicky phoooey to me. Also surprisingly, I can't
find any mention of the C-Force at golfpride.com.

Do you have any data or descriptions from the old Balance Certified
products? Has anyone found a useful discussion of backweighting anywhere
on the web (other than to say that the effect on swingweight is
irrelevant)?

Play on. MyQ.


05 Jul 2005 21:35:16
Kenny Stultz
Re: Backweighting golf clubs

In article <1120578987.586218.83310@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com >,
annika1980@aol.com says...
>

>
>-Annika ----> the skeptic
>

Me too.

Let's talk science.

1. It's not changing MOI of the club appreciably.
2. It's changing the swingweight, but I know enough science to know that
doesn't count for anything of consequence.
3. It's making the club heavier which can do nothing but slow your swing speed
down.

Until someone can explain to me some type of scientific theory as why it should
provide some type of benefit, I'm voting smoke and mirrors.

I read a testimonial somewhere where a dude was going on and on about how much
further he was hitting his driver after backweighting it. If that truly is the
case (which I doubt), he could have saved himself a pile of money by not buying
that expensive backweight and expensive lightweight graphite shaft and just
getting a driver with a $5.00 steel shaft.

Kenny

--
Kenny Stultz - Troll and SPAM intolerant
"Golf is the only sport where a precise knowledge of the Rules can
earn one a reputation for bad sportsmanship"



06 Jul 2005 00:16:18
Ulrich Mayring
Re: Backweighting golf clubs

Kenny Stultz wrote:
>
> Until someone can explain to me some type of scientific theory as why it should
> provide some type of benefit, I'm voting smoke and mirrors.

Counter weighting is for smoothing out your putting stroke or swing.
Whether your putting stroke or swing will benefit from additional
smoothness at the expense of a little clubhead speed, that is for you to
find out.

The Balance Certified Weights are $40 each currently. That's fairly
expensive, but they have a loyal following, so I guess they charge what
their customers think the system is worth.

Ulrich


06 Jul 2005 12:32:23
Mike Dalecki
Re: Backweighting golf clubs

Annika1980 wrote:

>>Supposedly it also is supposed to affect the resonance of the club or
>>some such.
>
>
> Keyword: Supposedly.
>
> These gimmicks are just that .... gimmicks.
> You can't add enough weight to counterbalance a club since you are
> gripping
> the club very near the end of the shaft. And why would you want to?
> You can't get around the fact that these weight systems simply add to
> the
> overall club weight. That's just gonna slow you down, which may in
> fact help a few golfers. Even if you could put the majority of the
> weight in the grip you'd lose feel.

Not having any scientific basis to address it, I have felt since the
beginning that it's a feel issue, not something that changes the
frequency of the club.

I have the balance-certified system in my putter; I can, when I change
weights, feel it in my shoulders (I'm doing a rocking motion). I
suspect that backweighting has the most value for some people in terms
of helping with a timing issue.

If it helped with timing, even though the overall club is heavier, it
could produce a better lag and release, and result in more distance.

> Having said that, I must confess that I've tried it.
> I've put heavy extensions and lead tape under the grip, you name it.
> Now it might be worth a try for putters, assuming you don't like the
> feel of your
> current one. But then I'd ask, why not find a better feeling putter?
>
> -Annika ----> the skeptic

Well, it would save some money to backweight a putter rather than buying
a new one.

I am intrigued by this approach. I have some interest in finding out
whether more backweighting will help me with a first move down, rather
than out (the casting tendency I just can't seem to banish from my swing).

On those days when I can get my downswing to drop in the slot, the shots
are wonderful. If I can't find the slot, it's a cast. Maybe weighting
will help with that.

Mike
>


--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Dalecki GCA Accredited Clubmaker http://clubdoctor.com
RSG-Wisconsin 2005 Pics: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2005/pics/
------------------------------------------------------------------------


06 Jul 2005 12:34:56
Mike Dalecki
Re: Backweighting golf clubs

Kenny Stultz wrote:

> In article <1120578987.586218.83310@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
> annika1980@aol.com says...
>
>
>>-Annika ----> the skeptic
>>
>
>
> Me too.
>
> Let's talk science.
>
> 1. It's not changing MOI of the club appreciably.
> 2. It's changing the swingweight, but I know enough science to know that
> doesn't count for anything of consequence.
> 3. It's making the club heavier which can do nothing but slow your swing speed
> down.

I'm not so sure that has to be the case, Kenny. What if backweighting
helped one achieve a better release, a better lag? In that case, you
might find swingspeed increasing.

> Until someone can explain to me some type of scientific theory as why it should
> provide some type of benefit, I'm voting smoke and mirrors.
>
> I read a testimonial somewhere where a dude was going on and on about how much
> further he was hitting his driver after backweighting it. If that truly is the
> case (which I doubt), he could have saved himself a pile of money by not buying
> that expensive backweight and expensive lightweight graphite shaft and just
> getting a driver with a $5.00 steel shaft.

I'm not so sure of that, either. Does a club w/ most of the added
weight at the butt end feel different from one where the weight is
distributed along the entire length of the shaft?

I suspect much of this, if it works, is a feel issue.

Mike



>
> Kenny
>


--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Dalecki GCA Accredited Clubmaker http://clubdoctor.com
RSG-Wisconsin 2005 Pics: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2005/pics/
------------------------------------------------------------------------


07 Jul 2005 07:29:23
david s-a
Re: Backweighting golf clubs

Mike Dalecki wrote:
> A couple years ago, I was playing around with the Balance Certified
> backweighting system.


I also played around with this system, but I have found that adding
weight to your clubs is about the only real effect it has. Over the
years I have been intrigued as to why certain players, amateur and pro
alike, tend to hold their clubs further down the grip than appears
necessary....and they do this as an almost natural action. In
considering this along with the published 'theory' on the effectiveness
of 'backweighting' I wondered if these players were unconsciously doing
the same thing, but without adding significant weigh to the club. I
tried this with my putter...simply extended the butt length (in my case
about 3"), I use a longer putter grip so that I can simply hold the
putter at the usual height. I have found this to be most
beneficial.....it appears to add stability to the putting stroke and
certainly gives added confidence for you putting accuracy.

I have yet to try this out on irons or drivers....but I feel an added
two or three inches might do the trick......noting of course that this
will add some 14 to 20 swing weight points to the club with adding
significant weight....and by holding the club further down the grip (in
effect) I am still able to swing a comfortable 'weight', (which for me
is about C8 or C9)...with the added advantage of the counter balancing
effect.(which I suspect is the effect on the MOI of the club)

cheers
david