| |
| 21 Apr 2008 15:22:18 |
| Alistair Potts |
| Levelling the field |
OK, I have a proper question. I've never been a big fan of lightweights. I don't approve of the entirely arbitrary weight limit etc.; these are well rehearsed arguments But I've also felt that rowing could (and should) be a more inclusive sport, for the simple fact that hulls displace water and the bigger you are the more water you have to displace. In other words, wouldn't it be great if you didn't have to be over 6'3" to stand more than a tiny chance of making it in top level competition. I'm not one of those people who thinks that everyone deserves a medal: high jump is and always will be for very tall people. Moreover, winning at the top level should always require a remarkable performance. But as I said, the intrinsic nature of boats should, to my mind, at least give the little guy more of a chance than he already has. This would actually make winning _more_ exceptional, because the bigger the pyramid below you, the higher you stand. There's two possible directions. The first is for the equipment rule makers to see what they can do. This is a tricky one - no-one wants to see bigger rowers carrying extra weights, but the incredibly daft rule that a WL4x has to weigh the same as a M4x would be a place to start. I simply don't know whether subtle changes in equipment rules would make the necessary difference though. The other thing that struck me was how cycling has branched out into road racing, velodrome, mountain bike and BMX - the latter two recent developments that have nevertheless made it into the Olympics. It seems to me that cycling types are much more imaginative and less conservative than rowers in embracing ideas about different sorts of competition. I don't know how much the physical characteristics of cyclists varies between these events, but I'm guessing it's greater than amongst rowers. I've often said that rowing is doing itself no long-term favours by focussing exclusively on the watching-paint-dry excitement of 2k races for everyone. Usually people make the case for a more varied sort of race from the spectating point of view - but the case would surely be stronger if the (potential) competitors were to gain too. With the caveat that absolutely nothing will happen at all, what do you think? ---------------------------------------- Children's Partyware at Party Ark http://www.partyark.co.uk |
| 21 Apr 2008 07:59:58 |
| Mike De Petris |
| Re: Levelling the field |
On Apr 21, 4:22 pm, "Alistair Potts" <alistair.potts+use...@gmail.com > wrote: > The other thing that struck me was how cycling has branched out into road > racing, velodrome, mountain bike and BMX - the latter two recent ... > With the caveat that absolutely nothing will happen at all, what do you > think? Coastal rowing is emerging. I really hope rowing doesn't follow the cycling way for a couple of reasons btw :-( |
| 21 Apr 2008 17:18:05 |
| Ted van de Weteringe |
| Re: Levelling the field |
Alistair Potts wrote: > to me that cycling types are much more imaginative and less conservative > than rowers in embracing ideas about different sorts of competition. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UG0Zg8Y9GxQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzH0mvr7X2A ... (words fail) > I've often said that rowing is doing itself no long-term favours by > focussing exclusively on the watching-paint-dry excitement of 2k races > for everyone. Usually people make the case for a more varied sort of > race from the spectating point of view - but the case would surely be > stronger if the (potential) competitors were to gain too. I always liked the idea of relays. Start in front of the public, finish in front of the public. Variable boat types (eg. 1x, 2-, 4x, 8+), variable distance (also within the race, eg. 2x 500m + 2x 1000m), men/women/mixed. |
| 21 Apr 2008 08:25:15 |
| Re: Levelling the field |
On 21 Apr, 15:22, "Alistair Potts" <alistair.potts+use...@gmail.com > wrote: > With the caveat that absolutely nothing will happen at all, what do you > think? I agree entirely, and to counter the argument that rowing already has too many athletes, I would suggest splitting the different boat classes into different types of events, but without weight classes. For example like this: 8+ and 4x - short sprints on artificial lakes, much like we have already, although possibly even shorter distance? 4- and 2x - intermediate distance (maybe 5k) on rivers. Initial time trial followed by match racing. 2- and 1x - long distance racing (10k+) on rivers/big natural lakes, including turns, maybe mass starts etc. And then maybe a team relay event, over 4 x 500m, with say 8+, 4-, 2x and 1x. Just watching the cycling world track champs it was incredible to see the varieties of different races that they have. Add in road racing, time trials etc and you can see why so many people find it so much more interesting to do and watch. Quite agree nothing will ever change though. Cheers, Nick |
| 21 Apr 2008 12:51:06 |
| master of rythmn |
| Re: Levelling the field |
On 21 Apr, 16:25, nick.c.morr...@googlemail.com wrote: > On 21 Apr, 15:22, "Alistair Potts" <alistair.potts+use...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > With the caveat that absolutely nothing will happen at all, what do you > > think? > > I agree entirely, and to counter the argument that rowing already has > too many athletes, I would suggest splitting the different boat > classes into different types of events, but without weight classes. > For example like this: > > 8+ and 4x - short sprints on artificial lakes, much like we have > already, although possibly even shorter distance? > > 4- and 2x - intermediate distance (maybe 5k) on rivers. Initial time > trial followed by match racing. > > 2- and 1x - long distance racing (10k+) on rivers/big natural lakes, > including turns, maybe mass starts etc. > > And then maybe a team relay event, over 4 x 500m, with say 8+, 4-, 2x > and 1x. > > Just watching the cycling world track champs it was incredible to see > the varieties of different races that they have. Add in road racing, > time trials etc and you can see why so many people find it so much > more interesting to do and watch. > > Quite agree nothing will ever change though. > > Cheers, > Nick It is quite possible that we will have a wider variety of rowing events in the future; but only if such events are controlled by men wearing dark blazers and pink socks and of questionable sexual preference.. Steve. |
| 21 Apr 2008 13:15:29 |
| Mike Sullivan |
| Re: Levelling the field |
"Alistair Potts" <alistair.potts+usenet@gmail.com > wrote in message news:Z5ednRE8vs-pPpHVnZ2dnUVZ8sOonZ2d@bt.com... > OK, I have a proper question. > snip > With the caveat that absolutely nothing will happen at all, what do you > think? Parimutuel betting. It's the only thing that makes horse racing as interesting to so many. Took my daughter to horse races Fri night and to rowing races Saturday morning. Having a bet down makes the race a whole lot more watchable. We got a bonus at the rowing races, however, sitting with some of the coaches during the races. B. thinks rowing coaches are way more fun than swim coaches. |
| 21 Apr 2008 13:44:16 |
| Sarah F |
| Re: Levelling the field |
On 21 Apr, 15:22, "Alistair Potts" <alistair.potts+use...@gmail.com > wrote: > OK, I have a proper question. > > I've never been a big fan of lightweights. Sorry, couldn't resist - is that why you married one? ;) |
| 21 Apr 2008 22:21:40 |
| Alistair Potts |
| Re: Levelling the field |
"Sarah F" <saf28@cam.ac.uk > wrote in message news:d635116c-642e-4978-acb0-1761289f515f@a22g2000hsc.googlegroups.com... > On 21 Apr, 15:22, "Alistair Potts" <alistair.potts+use...@gmail.com> > wrote: >> OK, I have a proper question. >> >> I've never been a big fan of lightweights. > > Sorry, couldn't resist - is that why you married one? ;) Ah yes well that's completely different. In fact when I wrote 'lightweights' I actually meant 'wasps'. Actually I've never liked wasps, they're just sub-standard bees getting in the way and make a nuisance of themselves ha ha ha a bit like lightweights no only joking joke joke joke. Anyway I thought I was completely anonymous on rec.sport.rowing obviously not hmmmmmmmmm I shall have to reconsider my posting strategy. |
| 21 Apr 2008 14:59:49 |
| Charles Carroll |
| Re: Levelling the field |
Alistair - You thought you were completely anonymous on rec.sport.rowing! Aren't you this Alistair Potts http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alistair_Potts? Cordially, Charles |
| 21 Apr 2008 15:07:32 |
| Mike Sullivan |
| Re: Levelling the field |
"Charles Carroll" <charles_carroll@comcast.net > wrote in message news:StGdnXfHu6Oak5DVnZ2dnUVZ_qOknZ2d@comcast.com... > > Alistair - > > You thought you were completely anonymous on rec.sport.rowing! > > Aren't you this Alistair Potts > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alistair_Potts? No, that's not Alistair, that's Wally Cleaver. http://walkerma.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/wally-cleaver_andy-myers.jpg |
| 21 Apr 2008 16:55:47 |
| Teaplant |
| Re: Levelling the field |
I certainly would like lightweight rowing to be binned in favour of some other type of race that perhaps suited the lighter athlete better than the usual goliath. If certain events naturally favoured lightweights on the whole, then great! It still feel that our sport is not best served by having so many boat classes at the olympics, racing over identical courses. There is something quite admirable about the way that a 100m sprinter is a different shape (on the whole) to a 5000m runner, and different again to a hurdler etc without the need for weight classifications. Similar again is the spectrum of athletes across a typical rugby team (i expect the same is true of american football). It makes these sports more watchable and more accessible for all. Unfortunately, is there a way of altering rowing events to make differently sized athletes naturally suited to one rather than another? There are certainly some current trends between boat types, but non-lightweights are usually pretty bloody huge compared to Joe Public. Drawing parallels with track athletics, long distance vs sprints does look like a good starting place (as someone else has suggested). Hurdles seems like a no-go! The relays don't really alter the biometrics much. What would a marathon sculler look like compared to a sprinter? hmmm.. Teaplant. |
| 22 Apr 2008 01:08:18 |
| Mike De Petris |
| Re: Levelling the field |
On Apr 22, 1:55 am, Teaplant <teapl...@hotmail.co.uk > wrote: > What would a marathon sculler look like compared to a sprinter? rowing is a weight supported activities, as swimming and cycling, so you can't compare to running events cycling can be done up and down hill and I do not see a way to do it in rowing boats swimming has different styles and I do not see a way to do it in rowing boats swimming has different distances and it is not simple to di it in rowing boats, as it is not simple to turn the boat fast and safe rowing has its specializations in different combinations of rowers in boats, one two four or eight with or without a cox, but yes, this is boring as the difference between boat classes is not meaningful for the public, you only see a speed difference that is not sensible for a spectator, the only big difference a watching is the quantity of people ranging from the singles to the eight races if you want to boost the show and have different sized athletes best suited for some events you could think to: - build boats able to turn very quick and safe - mix with other sports like in triathlon - add serious dangers like rapids and big waves - find a way to row uphill |
| 22 Apr 2008 11:50:31 |
| Ted van de Weteringe |
| Re: Levelling the field |
Charles Carroll wrote: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alistair_Potts? So Potts, were you Serena's disastrous date? |
| 22 Apr 2008 05:02:16 |
| JD |
| Re: Levelling the field |
I would like to see a rowing tug-o-war in which the sterns of two eights are tied to one another and the first to tow the other backward across a line wins. |
| 22 Apr 2008 05:07:47 |
| James. |
| Re: Levelling the field |
On Apr 22, 1:02 pm, JD <johnnda...@yahoo.com > wrote: > I would like to see a rowing tug-o-war in which the sterns of two > eights are tied to one another and the first to tow the other backward > across a line wins. I'm up for some slalom :D |
| 22 Apr 2008 05:21:39 |
| Mike De Petris |
| Re: Levelling the field |
On Apr 22, 2:07 pm, "James." <jamie_wil...@hotmail.com > wrote: > On Apr 22, 1:02 pm, JD <johnnda...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > I would like to see a rowing tug-o-war in which the sterns of two > > eights are tied to one another and the first to tow the other backward > > across a line wins. > > I'm up for some slalom :D ok, let's go extreme: bungee rowing |
| 22 Apr 2008 13:33:44 |
| Carl Douglas |
| Re: Levelling the field |
Mike De Petris wrote: > On Apr 22, 2:07 pm, "James." <jamie_wil...@hotmail.com> wrote: > >>On Apr 22, 1:02 pm, JD <johnnda...@yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> >>>I would like to see a rowing tug-o-war in which the sterns of two >>>eights are tied to one another and the first to tow the other backward >>>across a line wins. >> >>I'm up for some slalom :D > > > ok, let's go extreme: bungee rowing Over Niagara Falls? C |
| 22 Apr 2008 06:24:51 |
| Sarah F |
| Re: Levelling the field |
On 22 Apr, 13:33, Carl Douglas <c...@carldouglas.co.uk > wrote: > Mike De Petris wrote: > > On Apr 22, 2:07 pm, "James." <jamie_wil...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > >>On Apr 22, 1:02 pm, JD <johnnda...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > >>>I would like to see a rowing tug-o-war in which the sterns of two > >>>eights are tied to one another and the first to tow the other backward > >>>across a line wins. > > >>I'm up for some slalom :D > > > ok, let's go extreme: bungee rowing > > Over Niagara Falls? > > C Maybe that'll get the rowing bodies to implement underseat buoyancy? |
| 22 Apr 2008 15:19:12 |
| Carl Douglas |
| Re: Levelling the field |
Sarah F wrote: > On 22 Apr, 13:33, Carl Douglas <c...@carldouglas.co.uk> wrote: > >>Mike De Petris wrote: >> >>>On Apr 22, 2:07 pm, "James." <jamie_wil...@hotmail.com> wrote: >> >>>>On Apr 22, 1:02 pm, JD <johnnda...@yahoo.com> wrote: >> >>>>>I would like to see a rowing tug-o-war in which the sterns of two >>>>>eights are tied to one another and the first to tow the other backward >>>>>across a line wins. >> >>>>I'm up for some slalom :D >> >>>ok, let's go extreme: bungee rowing >> >>Over Niagara Falls? >> >>C > > > Maybe that'll get the rowing bodies to implement underseat buoyancy? I think I prefer to await the report of the UK's soon (I hope) to be published Rowing Safety Review. But back to topic: This topic - or the one we'd drifted into after Alistair's typically provocative start - of breathing life into the boring 2K regatta formula is one on which a number of us have expressed ourselves on various past occasions. Unfortunately, if we look at how our sister sport of flat-water canoe/kayak has progressed we see only the dead hand of officialdom. Where once they raced at all distances including 10k around the buoys, which was hugely exciting, especially at the turns, nothing now exceeds 1000m. Sure, they do have white water slalom (pity we don't!), but their marathon events are excluded from the Oly program. There are a few marathon rowing events, including in the UK the 32-mile Boston Marathon. Sure rowers can do portages (there's 1 in the Boston), but I can't recall anywhere else that involves them. And of course there are any number of >2k Head races. Unfortunately, whereas cycling, kayaking & running can group lots of competitors within a relatively narrow course, rowing needs to run long-distance events as time trials - a dull, specialist format in which to interest the public & never likely to be part of any larger regatta. But I do think that, on 2K courses, we could easily run events both longer than 2K & much shorter than 500m, & could (& have) run relays. Short events held in the past have shown the ability to attract huge interest &, since they require nothing more than stake boats as once used when women rowed only 1k (poor dears), they could be introduced at any time. And why not have, at least in 1x, races over 10k or more, everyone having to turn within fixed end zones & within their own lanes, much as swimmers do? Its a bit hard to dream up an equivalent of the medley relay that wouldn't look daft, but others might disagree. There are triathlon events which include rowing & they would seem capable of favouring the lighter, more nimble competitors. And I see no reason not to have white-water events too - as with canoe/kayak. The boats will differ from flat-water racers, but what fun it could be! But always there is the formulaic dead hand, those who claim 2K as perfection in rowing & demand ever bigger holes in the ground in their vain pretence of making this conspicuously expensive & unfair format "more fair". Mountain bike & cyclo-cross showed that there were other ways to compete on bikes, & Ewoud's Youtube references have shown me that others have shown you really can do stunts on bikes, the nursery slopes of which almost cost me my teeth as a kid &, on one occasion, my dignity in front of a long bus queue. Cheers - Carl -- Carl Douglas Racing Shells - Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories Write: Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK Find: http://tinyurl.com/2tqujf Email: carl@carldouglas.co.uk Tel: +44(0)1932-570946 Fax: -563682 URLs: www.carldouglas.co.uk (boats) & www.aerowing.co.uk (riggers) |
| 22 Apr 2008 15:50:17 |
| Alistair Potts |
| Re: Levelling the field |
"Sarah F" <saf28@cam.ac.uk > wrote in message news:d635116c-642e-4978-acb0-1761289f515f@a22g2000hsc.googlegroups.com... > On 21 Apr, 15:22, "Alistair Potts" <alistair.potts+use...@gmail.com> > wrote: >> OK, I have a proper question. >> >> I've never been a big fan of lightweights. > > Sorry, couldn't resist - is that why you married one? ;) Hang on a minute - you married one too. In fact you're a lightweight as well. Girls (tut): they're always marrying people. It would be good etiquette on rsr for lightweights to identify themselves when they post, even anonymously, so we know where they're coming from. You should preface all your remarks with ****** L ****** and make a noise like when a lorry reverses. |
| 22 Apr 2008 11:12:52 |
| Dave Sill |
| Re: Levelling the field |
Alistair Potts wrote: > > It would be good etiquette on rsr for lightweights to identify > themselves when they post, even anonymously, so we know where they're > coming from. Likewise for coxes? What about coaches, masters/veterans, scullers, sweepers, etc. Maybe we need a rowing geek code. -Dave |
| 22 Apr 2008 09:10:35 |
| Jonny |
| Re: Levelling the field |
On Apr 22, 8:21=A0pm, Mike De Petris <mikedepet...@gmail.com > wrote: > On Apr 22, 2:07 pm, "James." <jamie_wil...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > On Apr 22, 1:02 pm, JD <johnnda...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > I would like to see a rowing tug-o-war in which the sterns of two > > > eights are tied to one another and the first to tow the other backward= > > > across a line wins. > > > I'm up for some slalom :D > > ok, let's go extreme: bungee rowing I always liked a local favorite on the Yarra... Monster Truck Racing! Stern coxed 'tub' pair. Three men. Cox must weigh about the same as each of the rowers. 250m sprint course. Lots of oar breaking fun! |
| 22 Apr 2008 09:24:47 |
| MSJ |
| Re: Levelling the field |
What about rowing golf, in 1x, where you travel round a random shaped lake and have to 'hit' the flag at each of the holes with the bows of your boat, in a set order. Would give those with good boat skills a chance against those who just go fast in a straight line Even more meaning to the shouts of 'fore'!! Cheers, MSJ |
| 22 Apr 2008 10:23:10 |
| Re: Levelling the field |
On Apr 22, 7:19=A0am, Carl Douglas <c...@carldouglas.co.uk > wrote: > Sarah F wrote: > > On 22 Apr, 13:33, Carl Douglas <c...@carldouglas.co.uk> wrote: > > >>Mike De Petris wrote: > > >>>On Apr 22, 2:07 pm, "James." <jamie_wil...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > >>>>On Apr 22, 1:02 pm, JD <johnnda...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > >>>>>I would like to see a rowing tug-o-war in which the sterns of two > >>>>>eights are tied to one another and the first to tow the other backwar= d > >>>>>across a line wins. > > >>>>I'm up for some slalom :D > > >>>ok, let's go extreme: bungee rowing > > >>Over Niagara Falls? > > >>C > > > Maybe that'll get the rowing bodies to implement underseat buoyancy? > > I think I prefer to await the report of the UK's soon (I hope) to be > published Rowing Safety Review. > > But back to topic: > This topic - or the one we'd drifted into after Alistair's typically > provocative start - of breathing life into the boring 2K regatta formula > is one on which a number of us have expressed ourselves on various past > occasions. =A0Unfortunately, if we look at how our sister sport of > flat-water canoe/kayak has progressed we see only the dead hand of > officialdom. =A0Where once they raced at all distances including 10k > around the buoys, which was hugely exciting, especially at the turns, > nothing now exceeds 1000m. =A0Sure, they do have white water slalom (pity > we don't!), but their marathon events are excluded from the Oly program. > > There are a few marathon rowing events, including in the UK the 32-mile > Boston Marathon. =A0Sure rowers can do portages (there's 1 in the Boston),= > but I can't recall anywhere else that involves them. =A0And of course > there are any number of >2k Head races. > > Unfortunately, whereas cycling, kayaking & running can group lots of > competitors within a relatively narrow course, rowing needs to run > long-distance events as time trials - a dull, specialist format in which > to interest the public & never likely to be part of any larger regatta. > > But I do think that, on 2K courses, we could easily run events both > longer than 2K & much shorter than 500m, & could (& have) run relays. > Short events held in the past have shown the ability to attract huge > interest &, since they require nothing more than stake boats as once > used when women rowed only 1k (poor dears), they could be introduced at > any time. =A0And why not have, at least in 1x, races over 10k or more, > everyone having to turn within fixed end zones & within their own lanes, > much as swimmers do? =A0Its a bit hard to dream up an equivalent of the > medley relay that wouldn't look daft, but others might disagree. > > There are triathlon events which include rowing & they would seem > capable of favouring the lighter, more nimble competitors. =A0And I see no= > reason not to have white-water events too - as with canoe/kayak. =A0The > boats will differ from flat-water racers, but what fun it could be! > > But always there is the formulaic dead hand, those who claim 2K as > perfection in rowing & demand ever bigger holes in the ground in their > vain pretence of making this conspicuously expensive & unfair format > "more fair". =A0Mountain bike & cyclo-cross showed that there were other > ways to compete on bikes, & Ewoud's Youtube references have shown me > that others have shown you really can do stunts on bikes, the nursery > slopes of which almost cost me my teeth as a kid &, on one occasion, my > dignity in front of a long bus queue. > > Cheers - > Carl > -- > Carl Douglas Racing Shells =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0- > =A0 =A0 =A0Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories= > Write: =A0 Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK > Find: =A0 =A0http://tinyurl.com/2tqujf > Email: c...@carldouglas.co.uk =A0Tel: +44(0)1932-570946 =A0Fax: -563682 > URLs: =A0www.carldouglas.co.uk(boats) &www.aerowing.co.uk(riggers)- Hide q= uoted text - > > - Show quoted text - I don't agree that distance events have to be run one boat at a time. Sure, rowing boats take more room than paddled boats, but given a fairly long first leg after a mass start, the field usually unbunches itself before the first turn. As long as the turns aren't so sharp that coming and going boats interfere with each other - I love long distance races but I hate 180 degree turns. It isn't hard to find a rowing equivalent of uphill, with wind, waves, and current. And now, to preserve some silliness: How To Run A 10K Race On A 2K Course. Simple! The rowers row 2 K in one direction, rise, reverse their seats, and row 2K the other way. Etc. A few trifling techical issues like oarlocks that only square easily in one direction, a cox that can work as a bow cox one way and a stern cox the other, asymmetrical oars, the need for sternballs . . . . |
| 22 Apr 2008 21:26:13 |
| Henry Law |
| Re: Levelling the field |
Alistair Potts wrote: > With the caveat that absolutely nothing will happen at all, what do you > think? Bump bump bumpity-bump. -- Henry Law Manchester, England |
| 22 Apr 2008 22:36:19 |
| John Mulholland |
| Re: Levelling the field |
"Alistair Potts" <alistair.potts+usenet@gmail.com > wrote in message news:Z5ednRE8vs-pPpHVnZ2dnUVZ8sOonZ2d@bt.com... > OK, I have a proper question. > > I've never been a big fan of lightweights. I don't approve of the entirely > arbitrary weight limit etc.; these are well rehearsed arguments > > But I've also felt that rowing could (and should) be a more inclusive > sport, for the simple fact that hulls displace water and the bigger you > are the more water you have to displace. In other words, wouldn't it be > great if you didn't have to be over 6'3" to stand more than a tiny chance > of making it in top level competition. I'm not one of those people who > thinks that everyone deserves a medal: high jump is and always will be for > very tall people. Moreover, winning at the top level should always require > a remarkable performance. But as I said, the intrinsic nature of boats > should, to my mind, at least give the little guy more of a chance than he > already has. This would actually make winning _more_ exceptional, because > the bigger the pyramid below you, the higher you stand. > > There's two possible directions. The first is for the equipment rule > makers to see what they can do. This is a tricky one - no-one wants to see > bigger rowers carrying extra weights, but the incredibly daft rule that a > WL4x has to weigh the same as a M4x would be a place to start. I simply > don't know whether subtle changes in equipment rules would make the > necessary difference though. > > The other thing that struck me was how cycling has branched out into road > racing, velodrome, mountain bike and BMX - the latter two recent > developments that have nevertheless made it into the Olympics. It seems to > me that cycling types are much more imaginative and less conservative than > rowers in embracing ideas about different sorts of competition. I don't > know how much the physical characteristics of cyclists varies between > these events, but I'm guessing it's greater than amongst rowers. I've > often said that rowing is doing itself no long-term favours by focussing > exclusively on the watching-paint-dry excitement of 2k races for everyone. > Usually people make the case for a more varied sort of race from the > spectating point of view - but the case would surely be stronger if the > (potential) competitors were to gain too. > > > With the caveat that absolutely nothing will happen at all, what do you > think? > > > ---------------------------------------- > Children's Partyware at Party Ark > http://www.partyark.co.uk Why should we level the field? At what other sport could Matt Pinsent have excelled. I share Matt's dimensions but, sadly, not his skill or fitness; and I relish a sport at which I'm not a complete also-ran. Would those who have seen me rowing, please stop laughing! -- John Mulholland |
| 23 Apr 2008 03:10:15 |
| Re: Levelling the field |
Hmm... How about taking a narrow, twisty river with some ferocious corners, get 24 Eights of varying ability and set them all off at the sound of a dirty great cannon a length and a half behind the boat in front aiming to hit them? |
| 23 Apr 2008 03:37:39 |
| Mike De Petris |
| Re: Levelling the field |
On Apr 22, 7:23 pm, z...@zekehoskin.com wrote: > It isn't hard to find a rowing equivalent of uphill, with wind, waves, > and current. I do not see how you can easily find a situation that favours lighter rowers as lighter cyclists, can you explain please? |
| 23 Apr 2008 04:42:10 |
| Sarah F |
| Re: Levelling the field |
On 23 Apr, 11:10, james.t...@googlemail.com wrote: > Hmm... > > How about taking a narrow, twisty river with some ferocious corners, > get 24 Eights of varying ability and set them all off at the sound of > a dirty great cannon a length and a half behind the boat in front > aiming to hit them? Not sure where they race 24 crews like that, but if you're referring to the Cambridge Bumps then I have to agree that they are some of the most fun races to watch as a spectator. Definitely more fun than watching the Boat Race! The Hospital Bumping Races are just as fun to watch (so I've been told)- even if its just to see the bloke holding the bung at low tide... |
| 23 Apr 2008 05:39:50 |
| Re: Levelling the field |
On 23 Apr, 12:42, Sarah F <sa...@cam.ac.uk > wrote: > On 23 Apr, 11:10, james.t...@googlemail.com wrote: > > > Hmm... > > > How about taking a narrow, twisty river with some ferocious corners, > > get 24 Eights of varying ability and set them all off at the sound of > > a dirty great cannon a length and a half behind the boat in front > > aiming to hit them? > > Not sure where they race 24 crews like that, but if you're referring > to the Cambridge Bumps then I have to agree that they are some of the > most fun races to watch as a spectator. Definitely more fun than > watching the Boat Race! The Hospital Bumping Races are just as fun to > watch (so I've been told)- even if its just to see the bloke holding > the bung at low tide... Oops, 17. I'm not very good at numbers... It's just a particularly different form of race that is ideal for spectator excitement; the thing is, the worse the crews the more the entertainment so perhaps not suited to the very highest level. |
| 23 Apr 2008 07:18:48 |
| Sarah F |
| Re: Levelling the field |
On 23 Apr, 13:39, james.t...@googlemail.com wrote: > On 23 Apr, 12:42, Sarah F <sa...@cam.ac.uk> wrote: > > > On 23 Apr, 11:10, james.t...@googlemail.com wrote: > > > > Hmm... > > > > How about taking a narrow, twisty river with some ferocious corners, > > > get 24 Eights of varying ability and set them all off at the sound of > > > a dirty great cannon a length and a half behind the boat in front > > > aiming to hit them? > > > Not sure where they race 24 crews like that, but if you're referring > > to the Cambridge Bumps then I have to agree that they are some of the > > most fun races to watch as a spectator. Definitely more fun than > > watching the Boat Race! The Hospital Bumping Races are just as fun to > > watch (so I've been told)- even if its just to see the bloke holding > > the bung at low tide... > > Oops, 17. I'm not very good at numbers... > > It's just a particularly different form of race that is ideal for > spectator excitement; the thing is, the worse the crews the more the > entertainment so perhaps not suited to the very highest level. 17 + sandwich boat! No, and I suggest if you had elite crews doign bumps, the whole thing would amount to a procession... bit like the top of M1 in Mays, only faster! |
| 23 Apr 2008 19:52:13 |
| Christopher Anton |
| Re: Levelling the field |
"Sarah F" <saf28@cam.ac.uk > wrote in message news:a50cfdee-d4ef-4664-94bc-d3c466bf3d03@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com... > On 23 Apr, 11:10, james.t...@googlemail.com wrote: >> Hmm... >> >> How about taking a narrow, twisty river with some ferocious corners, >> get 24 Eights of varying ability and set them all off at the sound of >> a dirty great cannon a length and a half behind the boat in front >> aiming to hit them? > > Not sure where they race 24 crews like that, but if you're referring > to the Cambridge Bumps then I have to agree that they are some of the > most fun races to watch as a spectator. Definitely more fun than > watching the Boat Race! The Hospital Bumping Races are just as fun to > watch (so I've been told)- even if its just to see the bloke holding > the bung at low tide... Quite right, there's only space at Cambridge for 18 and even then the head crew has an uncomfortable start - getting an eight round a 45o bend whilst doing a sprint start is not easy believe me - and the sandwich boat starts with it's stern practically in Baitsbite lock. |
| 23 Apr 2008 12:25:07 |
| Peter Ford |
| Re: Levelling the field |
On Apr 23, 7:52 pm, "Christopher Anton" <c.an...@NOSPAM.blueyonder.co.uk > wrote: > "Sarah F" <sa...@cam.ac.uk> wrote in message > > news:a50cfdee-d4ef-4664-94bc-d3c466bf3d03@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com... > > > On 23 Apr, 11:10, james.t...@googlemail.com wrote: > >> Hmm... > > >> How about taking a narrow, twisty river with some ferocious corners, > >> get 24 Eights of varying ability and set them all off at the sound of > >> a dirty great cannon a length and a half behind the boat in front > >> aiming to hit them? > > > Not sure where they race 24 crews like that, but if you're referring > > to the Cambridge Bumps then I have to agree that they are some of the > > most fun races to watch as a spectator. Definitely more fun than > > watching the Boat Race! The Hospital Bumping Races are just as fun to > > watch (so I've been told)- even if its just to see the bloke holding > > the bung at low tide... > > Quite right, there's only space at Cambridge for 18 and even then the head > crew has an uncomfortable start - getting an eight round a 45o bend whilst > doing a sprint start is not easy believe me - and the sandwich boat starts > with it's stern practically in Baitsbite lock. It didn't seem particularly uncomfortable to me in my first bumps, but then I was at bow and therefore on the inside of the corner. But even so, we were getting 20 or 21 strokes in before the first touch of the rudder, and a few more before any significant cornering. 20 strokes in for most people is getting down to a decidely controllable rating, and it seemed to be a fairly natural place to let the rate come down naturally; I think we were going into the corner at ~42, coming out at ~38. Admittedly tho, it would definitely be a problem to have more than 1 or maybe 2 more crews. Peter |
| 23 Apr 2008 13:00:34 |
| Re: Levelling the field |
On Apr 23, 11:52 am, "Christopher Anton" <c.an...@NOSPAM.blueyonder.co.uk > wrote: > "Sarah F" <sa...@cam.ac.uk> wrote in message > > news:a50cfdee-d4ef-4664-94bc-d3c466bf3d03@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com... > > > On 23 Apr, 11:10, james.t...@googlemail.com wrote: > >> Hmm... > > >> How about taking a narrow, twisty river with some ferocious corners, > >> get 24 Eights of varying ability and set them all off at the sound of > >> a dirty great cannon a length and a half behind the boat in front > >> aiming to hit them? > > > Not sure where they race 24 crews like that, but if you're referring > > to the Cambridge Bumps then I have to agree that they are some of the > > most fun races to watch as a spectator. Definitely more fun than > > watching the Boat Race! The Hospital Bumping Races are just as fun to > > watch (so I've been told)- even if its just to see the bloke holding > > the bung at low tide... > > Quite right, there's only space at Cambridge for 18 and even then the head > crew has an uncomfortable start - getting an eight round a 45o bend whilst > doing a sprint start is not easy believe me - and the sandwich boat starts > with it's stern practically in Baitsbite lock. "Sandwich boat." What's that? Do they take orders for heros and subs; easy on the pickles... |
| 23 Apr 2008 21:11:11 |
| Chris Kerr |
| Re: Levelling the field |
Sandwich boats are the solution to having more than 18 eights competing in one event - the boats are separated into divisions of 17 and the boat which finishes top in one gets to start at the bottom of the next. This boat is known as the sandwich boat, presumably because it is sandwiched between divisions. RoCoach@gmail.com wrote: > On Apr 23, 11:52 am, "Christopher Anton" > <c.an...@NOSPAM.blueyonder.co.uk> wrote: >> "Sarah F" <sa...@cam.ac.uk> wrote in message >> >> news:a50cfdee-d4ef-4664-94bc-d3c466bf3d03@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com... >> >> > On 23 Apr, 11:10, james.t...@googlemail.com wrote: >> >> Hmm... >> >> >> How about taking a narrow, twisty river with some ferocious corners, >> >> get 24 Eights of varying ability and set them all off at the sound of >> >> a dirty great cannon a length and a half behind the boat in front >> >> aiming to hit them? >> >> > Not sure where they race 24 crews like that, but if you're referring >> > to the Cambridge Bumps then I have to agree that they are some of the >> > most fun races to watch as a spectator. Definitely more fun than >> > watching the Boat Race! The Hospital Bumping Races are just as fun to >> > watch (so I've been told)- even if its just to see the bloke holding >> > the bung at low tide... >> >> Quite right, there's only space at Cambridge for 18 and even then the >> head crew has an uncomfortable start - getting an eight round a 45o bend >> whilst doing a sprint start is not easy believe me - and the sandwich >> boat starts with it's stern practically in Baitsbite lock. > > "Sandwich boat." What's that? Do they take orders for heros and subs; > easy on the pickles... |
| 23 Apr 2008 21:23:49 |
| Christopher Anton |
| Re: Levelling the field |
"Peter Ford" <p3t3r.f0rd@gmail.com > wrote in message news:3618eaba-0964-4712-a1bd- >> Quite right, there's only space at Cambridge for 18 and even then the >> head >> crew has an uncomfortable start - getting an eight round a 45o bend >> whilst >> doing a sprint start is not easy believe me - and the sandwich boat >> starts >> with it's stern practically in Baitsbite lock. > > It didn't seem particularly uncomfortable to me in my first bumps, but > then I was at bow and therefore on the inside of the corner. But even > so, we were getting 20 or 21 strokes in before the first touch of the > rudder, and a few more before any significant cornering. 20 strokes in > for most people is getting down to a decidely controllable rating, and > it seemed to be a fairly natural place to let the rate come down > naturally; I think we were going into the corner at ~42, coming out at > ~38. > > Admittedly tho, it would definitely be a problem to have more than 1 > or maybe 2 more crews. > Peter what level of crew was it. The time I remember was an Elite 8 in the town bumps and I definitely had to start using the rudder from about 16 strokes in. |
| 23 Apr 2008 22:46:22 |
| Caroline Smith |
| Re: Levelling the field |
> I always liked a local favorite on the Yarra... > Monster Truck Racing! > > Stern coxed 'tub' pair. Three men. Cox must weigh about the same as > each of the rowers. 250m sprint course. Sounds like the Corpus Christi (Oxford) tub pairs regatta... pair plus cox plus passenger. I think it's 4 legs, everyone has to take a turn at doing all 3 jobs (swapping on the water), water pistols, water bombs and other tomfoolery actively encouraged. Sadly I never got to join in the fun :( |
| 23 Apr 2008 18:04:39 |
| Peter Ford |
| Re: Levelling the field |
On Apr 23, 9:23 pm, "Christopher Anton" <c.an...@NOSPAM.blueyonder.co.uk > wrote: > "Peter Ford" <p3t3r.f...@gmail.com> wrote in message > > news:3618eaba-0964-4712-a1bd- > > >> Quite right, there's only space at Cambridge for 18 and even then the > >> head > >> crew has an uncomfortable start - getting an eight round a 45o bend > >> whilst > >> doing a sprint start is not easy believe me - and the sandwich boat > >> starts > >> with it's stern practically in Baitsbite lock. > > > It didn't seem particularly uncomfortable to me in my first bumps, but > > then I was at bow and therefore on the inside of the corner. But even > > so, we were getting 20 or 21 strokes in before the first touch of the > > rudder, and a few more before any significant cornering. 20 strokes in > > for most people is getting down to a decidely controllable rating, and > > it seemed to be a fairly natural place to let the rate come down > > naturally; I think we were going into the corner at ~42, coming out at > > ~38. > > > Admittedly tho, it would definitely be a problem to have more than 1 > > or maybe 2 more crews. > > Peter what level of crew was it. The time I remember was an Elite 8 in the > town bumps and I definitely had to start using the rudder from about 16 > strokes in. Trinity M1, going off head. Getting more strokes in was probably due to our start, which, overdeveloped from too much 1k regatta racing in the frost of mid-february, had ended up peaking at 48-50 spm. It certainly didn't feel like a problem from the rowers' perspective, and it never felt like there was any difficult with getting round the corner emanating from the coxes seat. I could be wrong tho', and she was very good at hiding it! Peter |
| 24 Apr 2008 10:12:21 |
| Christopher Anton |
| Re: Levelling the field |
"Peter Ford" <p3t3r.f0rd@gmail.com > wrote in message news:2fe221c1-b2b4-4ef7-87d3-d7b451818bfa@t63g2000hsf.googlegroups.com... > > Trinity M1, going off head. Getting more strokes in was probably due > to our start, which, overdeveloped from too much 1k regatta racing in > the frost of mid-february, had ended up peaking at 48-50 spm. It > certainly didn't feel like a problem from the rowers' perspective, and > it never felt like there was any difficult with getting round the > corner emanating from the coxes seat. I could be wrong tho', and she > was very good at hiding it! > > Peter IIRC then the Town bumps have an extra crew (or did) and so the head boat may have started closer to the bend. If you got your line right then it wasn't impossible to do, but you did need a modified start to cope with it. |
| 24 Apr 2008 02:50:49 |
| Re: Levelling the field |
On 24 Apr, 10:12, "Christopher Anton" <c.an...@NOSPAM.blueyonder.co.uk > wrote: > > IIRC then the Town bumps have an extra crew (or did) and so the head boat > may have started closer to the bend. If you got your line right then it > wasn't impossible to do, but you did need a modified start to cope with it. I've been off Head quite a few times in the Town Bumps in the last few years, and none of our coxes have ever had a noticeably tricky time getting round either First Post or Grassy. I wonder if you had a boat with a very small rudder? I've done it in a Sims, a Vespoli and a Filippi. As far back as 1998 (which is when the results on the Town Bumps site go back to) there were 17 boats + the sandwich boat per division. |
| 24 Apr 2008 10:30:29 |
| AnatoleBeams@googlemail.com |
| Re: Levelling the field |
Or jousting in sculls!!! Wait a minute - there are a number of rowers who do that already! Anatole |
| 26 Apr 2008 12:05:02 |
| Sarah F |
| Re: Levelling the field |
On 22 Apr, 15:50, "Alistair Potts" <alistair.potts+use...@gmail.com > wrote: > "Sarah F" <sa...@cam.ac.uk> wrote in message > > news:d635116c-642e-4978-acb0-1761289f515f@a22g2000hsc.googlegroups.com... > > > On 21 Apr, 15:22, "Alistair Potts" <alistair.potts+use...@gmail.com> > > wrote: > >> OK, I have a proper question. > > >> I've never been a big fan of lightweights. > > > Sorry, couldn't resist - is that why you married one? ;) > > Hang on a minute - you married one too. In fact you're a lightweight as > well. Girls (tut): they're always marrying people. Yes, true! > > It would be good etiquette on rsr for lightweights to identify themselves > when they post, even anonymously, so we know where they're coming from. You > should preface all your remarks with ****** L ****** and make a noise like > when a lorry reverses. Meep meep |
