04 May 2008 11:03:34
Yet Another US Rescue

http://www.newsday.com/news/local/suffolk/ny-liresc0503,0,3817257.story

A bayman helped rescue about a dozen students on the St. Anthony's
High School crew team who capsized in the choppy waters of Lloyd
Harbor, police said Saturday.

About 10 a.m. Friday, Lloyd Harbor police received a call that a scull
and a chase boat had capsized in the harbor, and the crew members and
their coach were clinging to the boats, Officer Joseph Donnaruma said.

By the time police responded, bayman William Rusinski, 50, of Commack,
had pulled the students and their coach aboard his motorboat.

A second chase boat came to take some of the students off Rusinski's
boat, itself in danger of sinking with so many people aboard, he said.

"Any time there's a northeasterly wind, it gets choppy" in the harbor,
Rusinski said. "I thought I was going to go down, too." Rusinski
brought the students ashore at Coindre Hall. All of the students were
taken to Huntington Hospital, where they were treated and released,
police said.

"Everybody was OK," Donnaruma said. Messages left Saturday for St.
Anthony's officials were not returned.


04 May 2008 21:01:10
Carl Douglas
Re: Yet Another US Rescue

RoCoach@gmail.com wrote:
> http://www.newsday.com/news/local/suffolk/ny-liresc0503,0,3817257.story
>
> A bayman helped rescue about a dozen students on the St. Anthony's
> High School crew team who capsized in the choppy waters of Lloyd
> Harbor, police said Saturday.
>
> About 10 a.m. Friday, Lloyd Harbor police received a call that a scull
> and a chase boat had capsized in the harbor, and the crew members and
> their coach were clinging to the boats, Officer Joseph Donnaruma said.
>
> By the time police responded, bayman William Rusinski, 50, of Commack,
> had pulled the students and their coach aboard his motorboat.
>
> A second chase boat came to take some of the students off Rusinski's
> boat, itself in danger of sinking with so many people aboard, he said.
>
> "Any time there's a northeasterly wind, it gets choppy" in the harbor,
> Rusinski said. "I thought I was going to go down, too." Rusinski
> brought the students ashore at Coindre Hall. All of the students were
> taken to Huntington Hospital, where they were treated and released,
> police said.
>
> "Everybody was OK," Donnaruma said. Messages left Saturday for St.
> Anthony's officials were not returned.


Oh dear! Here we go, yet again.

It seems Mr. Rusinski came far too close to losing his own life in
rescuing the lives of 10 others. I see no mention of adequate
flotation, for either the shells or the coaching craft, within the St
Anthony's Crew operating procedures listed in:
http://www.stanthonycrew.org/

I can understand that the school may not much want to discuss this with
the outside world, but I fear that the consequence if the lessons are
not adequately shared or learned.

I have written to a member of the club's board.

Carl

--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
Find: http://tinyurl.com/2tqujf
Email: carl@carldouglas.co.uk Tel: +44(0)1932-570946 Fax: -563682
URLs: www.carldouglas.co.uk (boats) & www.aerowing.co.uk (riggers)


04 May 2008 16:30:26
Re: Yet Another US Rescue

On May 4, 1:01 pm, Carl Douglas <c...@carldouglas.co.uk > wrote:
> RoCo...@gmail.com wrote:
> >http://www.newsday.com/news/local/suffolk/ny-liresc0503,0,3817257.story
>
> > A bayman helped rescue about a dozen students on the St. Anthony's
> > High School crew team who capsized in the choppy waters of Lloyd
> > Harbor, police said Saturday.
>
> > About 10 a.m. Friday, Lloyd Harbor police received a call that a scull
> > and a chase boat had capsized in the harbor, and the crew members and
> > their coach were clinging to the boats, Officer Joseph Donnaruma said.
>
> > By the time police responded, bayman William Rusinski, 50, of Commack,
> > had pulled the students and their coach aboard his motorboat.
>
> > A second chase boat came to take some of the students off Rusinski's
> > boat, itself in danger of sinking with so many people aboard, he said.
>
> > "Any time there's a northeasterly wind, it gets choppy" in the harbor,
> > Rusinski said. "I thought I was going to go down, too." Rusinski
> > brought the students ashore at Coindre Hall. All of the students were
> > taken to Huntington Hospital, where they were treated and released,
> > police said.
>
> > "Everybody was OK," Donnaruma said. Messages left Saturday for St.
> > Anthony's officials were not returned.
>
> Oh dear! Here we go, yet again.
>
> It seems Mr. Rusinski came far too close to losing his own life in
> rescuing the lives of 10 others. I see no mention of adequate
> flotation, for either the shells or the coaching craft, within the St
> Anthony's Crew operating procedures listed in:
> http://www.stanthonycrew.org/
>
> I can understand that the school may not much want to discuss this with
> the outside world, but I fear that the consequence if the lessons are
> not adequately shared or learned.
>
> I have written to a member of the club's board.
>
> Carl
>
> --
> Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
> Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
> Write: Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
> Find: http://tinyurl.com/2tqujf
> Email: c...@carldouglas.co.uk Tel: +44(0)1932-570946 Fax: -563682
> URLs: www.carldouglas.co.uk(boats) &www.aerowing.co.uk(riggers)


It appears that most of the coaches have very little experience, and
are only a couple of years out of college.


04 May 2008 20:57:18
ATP*
Re: Yet Another US Rescue


<RoCoach@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:cbf3114c-7e35-4229-86d7-3f4b8f7a57a4@a9g2000prl.googlegroups.com...
> http://www.newsday.com/news/local/suffolk/ny-liresc0503,0,3817257.story
>
> A bayman helped rescue about a dozen students on the St. Anthony's
> High School crew team who capsized in the choppy waters of Lloyd
> Harbor, police said Saturday.
>
> About 10 a.m. Friday, Lloyd Harbor police received a call that a scull
> and a chase boat had capsized in the harbor, and the crew members and
> their coach were clinging to the boats, Officer Joseph Donnaruma said.
>
> By the time police responded, bayman William Rusinski, 50, of Commack,
> had pulled the students and their coach aboard his motorboat.
>
> A second chase boat came to take some of the students off Rusinski's
> boat, itself in danger of sinking with so many people aboard, he said.
>
> "Any time there's a northeasterly wind, it gets choppy" in the harbor,
> Rusinski said. "I thought I was going to go down, too." Rusinski
> brought the students ashore at Coindre Hall. All of the students were
> taken to Huntington Hospital, where they were treated and released,
> police said.
>
> "Everybody was OK," Donnaruma said. Messages left Saturday for St.
> Anthony's officials were not returned.

Well, that's pretty close to home, I used to work at Coindre Hall from time
to time. The Sagamore Rowing Club has a boathouse at Coindre Hall. It can
get rough out there. I think there might have been a few capsizings at the
Roth Pond Regatta in Stony Brook as well :-)




05 May 2008 04:40:22
TidewayUmpire
Re: Yet Another US Rescue

On 4 May, 21:01, Carl Douglas <c...@carldouglas.co.uk > wrote:
> RoCo...@gmail.com wrote:
> >http://www.newsday.com/news/local/suffolk/ny-liresc0503,0,3817257.story
>
> > A bayman helped rescue about a dozen students on the St. Anthony's
> > High School crew team who capsized in the choppy waters of Lloyd
> > Harbor, police said Saturday.
>
> > About 10 a.m. Friday, Lloyd Harbor police received a call that a scull
> > and a chase boat had capsized in the harbor, and the crew members and
> > their coach were clinging to the boats, Officer Joseph Donnaruma said.
>
> > By the time police responded, bayman William Rusinski, 50, of Commack,
> > had pulled the students and their coach aboard his motorboat.
>
> > A second chase boat came to take some of the students off Rusinski's
> > boat, itself in danger of sinking with so many people aboard, he said.
>
> > "Any time there's a northeasterly wind, it gets choppy" in the harbor,
> > Rusinski said. "I thought I was going to go down, too." Rusinski
> > brought the students ashore at Coindre Hall. All of the students were
> > taken to Huntington Hospital, where they were treated and released,
> > police said.
>
> > "Everybody was OK," Donnaruma said. Messages left Saturday for St.
> > Anthony's officials were not returned.
>
> Oh dear! =EF=BF=BDHere we go, yet again.
>
> It seems Mr. Rusinski came far too close to losing his own life in
> rescuing the lives of 10 others. =EF=BF=BDI see no mention of adequate
> flotation, for either the shells or the coaching craft, within the St
> Anthony's Crew operating procedures listed in:
> =EF=BF=BDhttp://www.stanthonycrew.org/
>
> I can understand that the school may not much want to discuss this with
> the outside world, but I fear that the consequence if the lessons are
> not adequately shared or learned.
>
> I have written to a member of the club's board.
>
> Carl
>
> --
> Carl Douglas Racing Shells =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD-
> =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BDFine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Ad=
vanced Accessories
> Write: =EF=BF=BD Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
> Find: =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BDhttp://tinyurl.com/2tqujf
> Email: c...@carldouglas.co.uk =EF=BF=BDTel: +44(0)1932-570946 =EF=BF=BDFax=
: -563682
> URLs: =EF=BF=BDwww.carldouglas.co.uk(boats) &www.aerowing.co.uk(riggers)- =
Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

" It seems Mr. Rusinski came far too close to losing his own life in
rescuing the lives of 10 others.."

Indeed he did - but he saw his duty, stuck to it despite/because of
the bad conditions and got 10 out on his own before another 'chase
boat' (?tin fish?) rendered assistance.

Hooray for him - bet no one from the school says 'Thanks - we owe
you'
Shame that he was put in a position to do it by others who are not
mindful or attentive to the hazards of wind & weather on those who
participate in activities they organise.

"I see no mention of adequate flotation, for either the shells or the
coaching craft, within the St Anthony's Crew operating procedures
listed in: http://www.stanthonycrew.org/"

But they do try to ensure that co-eds dont loiter in each others rooms
when away overnight and that the coach driver gets his tip !

Got to get the priorities right!







05 May 2008 06:29:57
JD
Re: Yet Another US Rescue

As must be well known on the tideway, one of the biggest contributors
to danger in tidal areas is the rapid change in direction of the
water's flow from with the wind to against it. In very short order, a
smooth patch of water can erupt into very rough going. Lloyd Harbor is
a 3 mile inlet off Long Island Sound and is as wide as 1/2 to 1 1/2
miles. It's perfect for this kind of situation. High tide for that
morning was at about 10 AM, so there was a lot of flow earlier in the
morning. Winds were from 8-17 MPH with few gusts to 17. I've never
been to the school and know no-one there. From photos on their site,
they appear to row in Vespoli's which rarely have underseat
flotation.

I don't disagree the administration appear to underestimate rowing
safety, perhaps out of ignorance. But as for Tideway Umpire's comment:
"...bet no one from the school says 'Thanks - we owe you'." I find
this sort of comment unhelpful and just plain nasty. It's one thing
to sift through known information gathered from maps, tides, weather
and website documents from across an ocean or, in my case halfway
across a continent, but to lay this kind of smack on an adminstration
or coaching staff that is certainly dedicated to the students and
likely naive about what rowing safety entails does no good at all. I
find Carl's approach - an email to board members - much more helpful.
To publicly insult them is bullying and only obstructs the process of
education. Who wants to be kicked when they're down and who will
listen to advice from a bully?


05 May 2008 06:58:43
Rob Collings
Re: Yet Another US Rescue

On 5 May, 14:29, JD <johnnda...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> From photos on their site,
> they appear to row in Vespoli's which rarely have underseat
> flotation.

Don't they? I've only examined 3 close up and am left with some degree
of uncertainty. These 3 (one 4+, two 2x/-) certainly have hatch covers
and bulkheads (no idea if this is standard). However, they also have
holes for cox box / stroke coach etc wiring which are approx 2cm
diameter and not sealed at all. Not that long ago, I had a discussion
as to whether they were bouyant with the conclusions that: we weren't
sure either way; it would be easy to fill those holes and that it
would pass muster at any SARA regatta. In spite of the holes, it
*does* carry a "This boat meets the FISA standard" sticker. It
certainly wouldn't remain floating for any significant length of time,
but I'm pretty sure it would last more than long enough to reach
safety anywhere most of us Scots are likely to row. But is it really
bouyant?

Rob.


05 May 2008 16:34:06
Carl Douglas
Re: Yet Another US Rescue

ATP* wrote:
> <RoCoach@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:cbf3114c-7e35-4229-86d7-3f4b8f7a57a4@a9g2000prl.googlegroups.com...
>
>>http://www.newsday.com/news/local/suffolk/ny-liresc0503,0,3817257.story
>>
>>A bayman helped rescue about a dozen students on the St. Anthony's
>>High School crew team who capsized in the choppy waters of Lloyd
>>Harbor, police said Saturday.
>>
>>About 10 a.m. Friday, Lloyd Harbor police received a call that a scull
>>and a chase boat had capsized in the harbor, and the crew members and
>>their coach were clinging to the boats, Officer Joseph Donnaruma said.
>>
>>By the time police responded, bayman William Rusinski, 50, of Commack,
>>had pulled the students and their coach aboard his motorboat.
>>
>>A second chase boat came to take some of the students off Rusinski's
>>boat, itself in danger of sinking with so many people aboard, he said.
>>
>>"Any time there's a northeasterly wind, it gets choppy" in the harbor,
>>Rusinski said. "I thought I was going to go down, too." Rusinski
>>brought the students ashore at Coindre Hall. All of the students were
>>taken to Huntington Hospital, where they were treated and released,
>>police said.
>>
>>"Everybody was OK," Donnaruma said. Messages left Saturday for St.
>>Anthony's officials were not returned.
>
>
> Well, that's pretty close to home, I used to work at Coindre Hall from time
> to time. The Sagamore Rowing Club has a boathouse at Coindre Hall. It can
> get rough out there. I think there might have been a few capsizings at the
> Roth Pond Regatta in Stony Brook as well :-)
>
>

While waiting to see if my message to the St Anthony's board member gets
a reply, & following your mention of Roth Pond Regatta, I took a squint
at this:
http://rothregatta.org/release.pdf

I'm astonished by the open declaration therein (with its extensive use
of caps) that:
"ROWING ACTIVITIES INVOLVE RISKS AND DANGERS OF SERIOUS BODILY INJURY,
INCLUDING PERMANENT DISABILITY, PARALYSIS AND DEATH (“RISKS”); (b) these
Risks and dangers may be caused by my child or ward’s own actions, or
inactions, the action or inactions of others participating in the
activity, the condition in which the activity takes place, or THE
NEGLIGENCE OF THE “RELEASEES” NAMED BELOW; (c) there may be OTHER RISKS
AND SOCIAL AND ECONOMIC LOSSES either not known to me or not readily
foreseeable at this time; and I FULLY ACCEPT AND ASSUME ALL SUCH RISKS
AND ALL RESPONSIBILITY FOR LOSSES, COSTS, AND DAMAGES I incur as a
result of my child or ward’s participation in the Activity."

DO US rowing organisers believe they run such a risky sport as to
require such waivers? I seriously doubt that, following a serious
accident, those waivers will be worth the paper they're written on,
especially when it affects the safety of kids.

While foolishly waving a flag to signal deadly risks in a sport they
otherwise promote as clean & safe, how can the USRA & other organising
bodies still fail to get the safety message - to the extent that they
actively encourage & permit rowers of all ages to go afloat in boats
that most rowers had never thought might fill & sink? What's wrong with
rowing that folk run cravenly to shelter behind verbose legal wallpaper,
yet lack the motivation & nous to see & rectify this fundamental
equipment flaw which is the most likely cause for them to seek legal
waivers?

Carl

--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
Find: http://tinyurl.com/2tqujf
Email: carl@carldouglas.co.uk Tel: +44(0)1932-570946 Fax: -563682
URLs: www.carldouglas.co.uk (boats) & www.aerowing.co.uk (riggers)


05 May 2008 17:01:06
Henry Law
Re: Yet Another US Rescue

Carl Douglas wrote:

> "ROWING ACTIVITIES INVOLVE RISKS AND DANGERS OF SERIOUS BODILY INJURY,
> INCLUDING PERMANENT DISABILITY, PARALYSIS AND DEATH (“RISKS”); (b) these
> Risks and dangers may be caused by my child or ward’s own actions, or
> inactions, the action or inactions of others participating in the
> activity, the condition in which the activity takes place, or THE
> NEGLIGENCE OF THE “RELEASEES” NAMED BELOW; (c) there may be OTHER RISKS
> AND SOCIAL AND ECONOMIC LOSSES either not known to me or not readily
> foreseeable at this time; and I FULLY ACCEPT AND ASSUME ALL SUCH RISKS
> AND ALL RESPONSIBILITY FOR LOSSES, COSTS, AND DAMAGES I incur as a
> result of my child or ward’s participation in the Activity."

Legal boilerplate. They're just trying it on - like you I doubt very
much that in court these would be worth anything. In fact even a
non-lawyer like me can see that they're trying to contract out of the
consequences of negligence, which I'm sure doesn't work.

--

Henry Law Manchester, England


05 May 2008 09:58:15
Charles Carroll
Re: Yet Another US Rescue

Carl & Henry -

Perhaps Henry is right. The warning that "ROWING ACTIVITIES INVOLVE RISKS
..." is plausibly some attorneys attempt to indemnify (i.e. "exempt from
incurred penalties or liabilities") the parties they represent. In this case
this would be Rowing Organizations, Clubs, boat builders, etc.

It is my strong opinion that in the States there are really only two ways to
decrease the risks in rowing. The first in unacceptable. It is merely
waiting for a tragedy and a one hundred milllion dollar law suit to follow.

The second is that someone writes a letter to the people in charge of a
rowing program where risks have been clearly identified. The letter needs to
do two thing: 1) ennumerate the risks and 2) point out the steps that can be
taken to correct or reduce them.

For example, consider drafting such a letter to Georgetown University. The
letter should be drafted by an acknowledged expert. And this means Carl that
I can't draft the letter. It has to be written by you, or someone of your
caliber, whose expertise is clearly acknowledged by other experts. The
letter then should be sent not to rowing coaches or even the director of
athletics, but to the President of the University. The reason for sending
it to the President of the University is that in the event of a tragedy no
lawyer can produce an argument that no one in authority has seen the letter.
Send it to a coach, it disappears into a pile of papers on his desk, and the
University has deniability. Send it to the president, copies go to the
coaching staff and to the legal office. Once the legal office sees it, the
University no longer has deniability.

What the letter does in effect is make the university "liable." And
"liability" is the one thing in the States everyone wants to avoid.

Simple! A few such letters circulating to Universities with "deep pockets"
and it is quite possible that you could see "full buoyancy" by the Fall of
2008, especially if the proceedures to make shells fully byuoyant are as
easy and cost effective as you, Carl, have maintained.

Just my two cents after years of reading these discussions and seeing
nothing happen.

Cordially,

Charles



05 May 2008 19:14:58
Stephen and Jane
Re: Yet Another US Rescue

JD wrote:

>
> I don't disagree the administration appear to underestimate rowing
> safety, perhaps out of ignorance. But as for Tideway Umpire's comment:
> "...bet no one from the school says 'Thanks - we owe you'." I find
> this sort of comment unhelpful and just plain nasty. It's one thing
> to sift through known information gathered from maps, tides, weather
> and website documents from across an ocean or, in my case halfway
> across a continent, but to lay this kind of smack on an adminstration
> or coaching staff that is certainly dedicated to the students and
> likely naive about what rowing safety entails does no good at all.

We partly agree but mostly disagree with what you say. Tideway Umpire's
comment is probably born out of sheer frustration and anger that these
things just keep on happening - which we also feel.

However, the administration and coaches concerned have absolutely no right
to be 'ignorant' or 'naive' about rowing safety - if indeed that is the
case. Whether professional or volunteers, whether dealing with adults or
children, whether in competition or training - it is their duty (moral and
legal) to know all there is to know about rowing safety to date, and to take
all reasonable steps to implement it. If you don't know the stuff, you
shouldn't be doing that job.

Jane and Stephen




05 May 2008 19:16:46
Stephen and Jane
Re: Yet Another US Rescue

Carl Douglas wrote:
>
> While waiting to see if my message to the St Anthony's board member
> gets a reply, & following your mention of Roth Pond Regatta, I took a
> squint at this:
> http://rothregatta.org/release.pdf
>
> I'm astonished by the open declaration therein (with its extensive use
> of caps) that:
> "ROWING ACTIVITIES INVOLVE RISKS AND DANGERS OF SERIOUS BODILY INJURY,
> INCLUDING PERMANENT DISABILITY, PARALYSIS AND DEATH (“RISKS”); (b)
> these Risks and dangers may be caused by my child or ward’s own
> actions, or inactions, the action or inactions of others
> participating in the activity, the condition in which the activity
> takes place, or THE NEGLIGENCE OF THE “RELEASEES” NAMED BELOW; (c)
> there may be OTHER RISKS AND SOCIAL AND ECONOMIC LOSSES either not
> known to me or not readily foreseeable at this time; and I FULLY
> ACCEPT AND ASSUME ALL SUCH RISKS AND ALL RESPONSIBILITY FOR LOSSES,
> COSTS, AND DAMAGES I incur as a result of my child or ward’s
> participation in the Activity."
> DO US rowing organisers believe they run such a risky sport as to
> require such waivers? I seriously doubt that, following a serious
> accident, those waivers will be worth the paper they're written on,
> especially when it affects the safety of kids.
>
> While foolishly waving a flag to signal deadly risks in a sport they
> otherwise promote as clean & safe, how can the USRA & other organising
> bodies still fail to get the safety message - to the extent that they
> actively encourage & permit rowers of all ages to go afloat in boats
> that most rowers had never thought might fill & sink? What's wrong
> with rowing that folk run cravenly to shelter behind verbose legal
> wallpaper, yet lack the motivation & nous to see & rectify this
> fundamental equipment flaw which is the most likely cause for them to
> seek legal waivers?
>
> Carl

Those waivers are not only useless in defence of the rowing organisers (it
is so easy to claim you have not really understood the full impact of what
you have signed, or that you have felt coerced into signing, or that you
don't actually understand all the words), but are also probably positively
harmful to their case.

As you say, they demonstrate an understanding that there are possibly fatal
risks involved in rowing - so they should then be able to demonstrate that
they have done all that is reasonably possible to reduce or eradicate that
risk. Carl, didn't the desperately sad Catilo case establish the duty of
care and safety role of both the club and USRowing?

Lack of buoyancy is now known throughout the rowing world to be a problem,
with a cheap and easy default solution which has no drawbacks. FISA has
legislated for it, has sent out advice to all NGBs about it, and has spoken
publicly about it (remember the Junior Worlds at Schinias). No-one can
reasonably claim ignorance.

Here's another problem with the 'waiver': In the case of the crew of a
non-buoyant boat which then sinks, it would be impossible for the organisers
to claim 'contributory negligence' by any victim, child or otherwise. It is
the lack of buoyancy which causes immersion of the crew, and it is that
moment of immersion which endangers the victims' life, not what they do once
they are already immersed. Death due to 'cold' water immersion can occur at
any time from the instant of immersion onwards, until some time after the
victim is removed from the water. Also the effects of cold water immersion
may have an immediate negative impact on the victim's decision making and
actions. No one thinks to blame the victims of, say, a ferry sinking for
their own death; no-one blames them for not saving themselves when the ferry
went down.

Jane and Stephen




05 May 2008 11:31:09
Mike Sullivan
Re: Yet Another US Rescue


"Henry Law" <news@lawshouse.org > wrote in message
news:1210003286.19429.0@proxy01.news.clara.net...
> Carl Douglas wrote:
>
>> "ROWING ACTIVITIES INVOLVE RISKS AND DANGERS OF SERIOUS BODILY INJURY,
>> INCLUDING PERMANENT DISABILITY, PARALYSIS AND DEATH (“RISKS”); (b) these
>> Risks and dangers may be caused by my child or ward’s own actions, or
>> inactions, the action or inactions of others participating in the
>> activity, the condition in which the activity takes place, or THE
>> NEGLIGENCE OF THE “RELEASEES” NAMED BELOW; (c) there may be OTHER RISKS
>> AND SOCIAL AND ECONOMIC LOSSES either not known to me or not readily
>> foreseeable at this time; and I FULLY ACCEPT AND ASSUME ALL SUCH RISKS
>> AND ALL RESPONSIBILITY FOR LOSSES, COSTS, AND DAMAGES I incur as a result
>> of my child or ward’s participation in the Activity."
>
> Legal boilerplate. They're just trying it on - like you I doubt very much
> that in court these would be worth anything. In fact even a non-lawyer
> like me can see that they're trying to contract out of the consequences of
> negligence, which I'm sure doesn't work.

actually, neither program leaders or insurers have any illusion that this
waiver language protects anyone from negligence. These do help immensely
in avoiding suits of the frivolous variety.

Frankly by the time the lawsuits start flying for real negligence,
generally it's the
largest institutions that get hammered. this happened a few years ago at
Clear Lake,
an incident I reported here. The city was responsible for having left a
massive steel
grate in the water at a beach (for seqplanes to drive up on to the beach),
yet the
county ended up paying for damages to a swimmer who got severely injured as
they are ultimately responsible for lake safety issues.

Our club ran programs next to this grate all year long with frequent calls
and
letters to the city asking them to remove the grate, plus an unsuccessful
attempt on our part to pull it out.

We ended up flagging and cordoning off the grate and managed
to avoid being near it, but other visitors to the spot would frequently
pull out the bouys
we strung, or rip out the flags. The girl who got hurt went swimming
after a
rowing lesson on a week I was gone. She grew up in the area and swam
there
frequently. She knew of the grate but forgot. My backup instructor
knew of the grate, he's extremely safety conscious and competent, and was
there when she got hurt, handling the first aid and injury professionally.

We weren't running programs at the time except for individual adult sculling
which was what she was doing.

This was a situation I've always felt responsible for, and when I heard the
results
of the lawsuit realized that where I had gone wrong as program director was
not
understanding who the deep pockets were. Our boat yard lives
on school district property, however they do not own a 20 foot strip right
along
the shore where people swim/fish from and where we launch. When the
city failed to respond I should have known to go to the county to bring some
equipment in to move that grate.

BTW. A few weeks ago a guy was pushing a stroller with his 2 year old
grandson
along a walkway/pier at Lake Michigan in Chicago. It was windy. He
paused for
a moment and temporarily let go of the stroller. A heavy gust blew the
stroller and
child into the cold water sinking 8-10 feet under.

As person who has assumed responsibility for teaching aquatic safety to
others, this
stuff really bothers me. I feel like Bill Murray in Groundhog Day.













05 May 2008 13:12:05
Mike Sullivan
Re: Yet Another US Rescue


"Stephen and Jane" <stephenDOTblockley@ukgateway.net > wrote in message
news:68918cF2rl89fU1@mid.individual.net...
> JD wrote:
>

snip

> However, the administration and coaches concerned have absolutely no right
> to be 'ignorant' or 'naive' about rowing safety - if indeed that is the
> case. Whether professional or volunteers, whether dealing with adults or
> children, whether in competition or training - it is their duty (moral and
> legal) to know all there is to know about rowing safety to date, and to
> take
> all reasonable steps to implement it. If you don't know the stuff, you
> shouldn't be doing that job.

Good, then I'm done! I'm going surfing.




05 May 2008 21:28:23
Carl Douglas
Re: Yet Another US Rescue

JD wrote:
> As must be well known on the tideway, one of the biggest contributors
> to danger in tidal areas is the rapid change in direction of the
> water's flow from with the wind to against it. In very short order, a
> smooth patch of water can erupt into very rough going. Lloyd Harbor is
> a 3 mile inlet off Long Island Sound and is as wide as 1/2 to 1 1/2
> miles. It's perfect for this kind of situation. High tide for that
> morning was at about 10 AM, so there was a lot of flow earlier in the
> morning. Winds were from 8-17 MPH with few gusts to 17. I've never
> been to the school and know no-one there. From photos on their site,
> they appear to row in Vespoli's which rarely have underseat
> flotation.
>
> I don't disagree the administration appear to underestimate rowing
> safety, perhaps out of ignorance. But as for Tideway Umpire's comment:
> "...bet no one from the school says 'Thanks - we owe you'." I find
> this sort of comment unhelpful and just plain nasty. It's one thing
> to sift through known information gathered from maps, tides, weather
> and website documents from across an ocean or, in my case halfway
> across a continent, but to lay this kind of smack on an adminstration
> or coaching staff that is certainly dedicated to the students and
> likely naive about what rowing safety entails does no good at all. I
> find Carl's approach - an email to board members - much more helpful.
> To publicly insult them is bullying and only obstructs the process of
> education. Who wants to be kicked when they're down and who will
> listen to advice from a bully?


In response to your comment above, JD, I have now written in detail to
the board of Clermont High School Crew, further to their double swamping
of 25 March, offering information and help (if needed). In due course I
hope to be able to report back to RSR that I have had positive responses
from Clermont and from St Anthony's. I may in due course do likewise
for Georgetown U. In so doing, I am aware that this may not be
commercially astute.

As I said earlier, I can understand the immediate reaction of a club in
response to such events. They may well have been largely unaware (or
have shut from their minds) that such a thing could happen to them &,
under the resulting shock, in no immediate mood to accept either that
things could have become very suddenly much worse, or that with such a
small prior investment there would have been nothing at all to report.

I consider that, as with many other NGB's, rowing safety in the USA is
poorly served by USRowing. While governing bodies continue to act as if
all they need is a waiver & the bullets can then be ducked, the ignoring
of the dangers & probabilities of swampings will continue to be rife.

Cheers -
Carl

--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
Find: http://tinyurl.com/2tqujf
Email: carl@carldouglas.co.uk Tel: +44(0)1932-570946 Fax: -563682
URLs: www.carldouglas.co.uk (boats) & www.aerowing.co.uk (riggers)


05 May 2008 21:34:20
Carl Douglas
Re: Yet Another US Rescue

Stephen and Jane wrote:
<snip >
> As you say, they demonstrate an understanding that there are possibly fatal
> risks involved in rowing - so they should then be able to demonstrate that
> they have done all that is reasonably possible to reduce or eradicate that
> risk. Carl, didn't the desperately sad Catilo case establish the duty of
> care and safety role of both the club and USRowing?
>

Despite substantial settlements having been paid by the defendants to
settle this action, that the Catilo case was not decided upon by the
court may mean that it set no precedent. Someone competent in US
jurisprudence might care to comment?

Carl
--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
Find: http://tinyurl.com/2tqujf
Email: carl@carldouglas.co.uk Tel: +44(0)1932-570946 Fax: -563682
URLs: www.carldouglas.co.uk (boats) & www.aerowing.co.uk (riggers)


05 May 2008 23:15:36
Stephen and Jane
Re: Yet Another US Rescue

Mike Sullivan wrote:
> "Stephen and Jane" <stephenDOTblockley@ukgateway.net> wrote in message
> news:68918cF2rl89fU1@mid.individual.net...
>> JD wrote:
>>
>
> snip
>
>> However, the administration and coaches concerned have absolutely no
>> right to be 'ignorant' or 'naive' about rowing safety - if indeed
>> that is the case. Whether professional or volunteers, whether
>> dealing with adults or children, whether in competition or training
>> - it is their duty (moral and legal) to know all there is to know
>> about rowing safety to date, and to take
>> all reasonable steps to implement it. If you don't know the stuff,
>> you shouldn't be doing that job.
>
> Good, then I'm done! I'm going surfing.

Tsk! But you do know your stuff, and are motivated to put it into practice,
so get back to your club immediately!

It may sound harsh, but it is really just plain common sense. Like you,
Sully, whenever we have undertaken voluntary work we have made sure that we
either already have the necessary knowledge or we acquire it pdq - otherwise
we'd be no use. If we can't come up with the goods, then we don't volunteer
if our ignorance may result in harm or disadvantage to others.

Likewise, organisations should not place responsibility onto volunteers who
do not have appropriate expertise.

The tag 'Volunteer' should not equate with 'second rate' when it comes to
being responsible for other peoples' wellbeing.

And if someone is actually being paid to know stuff, then they should know
it... is that too much to ask?

J and S




05 May 2008 17:37:25
Mike Sullivan
Re: Yet Another US Rescue


"Stephen and Jane" <stephenDOTblockley@ukgateway.net > wrote in message
news:689f85F2s0s9tU1@mid.individual.net...
> Mike Sullivan wrote:
>> "Stephen and Jane" <stephenDOTblockley@ukgateway.net> wrote in message
>> news:68918cF2rl89fU1@mid.individual.net...
>>> JD wrote:

snip

> The tag 'Volunteer' should not equate with 'second rate' when it comes to
> being responsible for other peoples' wellbeing.
>
> And if someone is actually being paid to know stuff, then they should know
> it... is that too much to ask?

My attention to and understanding of safety issues now is dramatically
different now than when I was coaching college/elite rowers many years ago.

My learning curve was my own, there was nobody teaching me to
adopt safe practices. It was when I gained experience teaching some
very unathletic people to scull starting not so many years ago that
I started realizing the responsibility. JD and I very well know we
could have been the coaches in any one of these situations in our
younger days, and I don't think I'm immune from it even now.

Someone could have taught me the nuts and bolts back then,
but until you are faced with it I don't know how else to teach the urgency
and the judgement other than dragging somebody out with me into
10 foot surf in 50 degree water with no wetsuit.

Hey Coach: meet Panic. Panic, this is Coach.







05 May 2008 21:16:26
ATP*
Re: Yet Another US Rescue


"Carl Douglas" <carl@carldouglas.co.uk > wrote in message
news:fvn9di$p4q$1$830fa17d@news.demon.co.uk...
> ATP* wrote:
>> <RoCoach@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:cbf3114c-7e35-4229-86d7-3f4b8f7a57a4@a9g2000prl.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>>http://www.newsday.com/news/local/suffolk/ny-liresc0503,0,3817257.story
>>>
>>>A bayman helped rescue about a dozen students on the St. Anthony's
>>>High School crew team who capsized in the choppy waters of Lloyd
>>>Harbor, police said Saturday.
>>>
>>>About 10 a.m. Friday, Lloyd Harbor police received a call that a scull
>>>and a chase boat had capsized in the harbor, and the crew members and
>>>their coach were clinging to the boats, Officer Joseph Donnaruma said.
>>>
>>>By the time police responded, bayman William Rusinski, 50, of Commack,
>>>had pulled the students and their coach aboard his motorboat.
>>>
>>>A second chase boat came to take some of the students off Rusinski's
>>>boat, itself in danger of sinking with so many people aboard, he said.
>>>
>>>"Any time there's a northeasterly wind, it gets choppy" in the harbor,
>>>Rusinski said. "I thought I was going to go down, too." Rusinski
>>>brought the students ashore at Coindre Hall. All of the students were
>>>taken to Huntington Hospital, where they were treated and released,
>>>police said.
>>>
>>>"Everybody was OK," Donnaruma said. Messages left Saturday for St.
>>>Anthony's officials were not returned.
>>
>>
>> Well, that's pretty close to home, I used to work at Coindre Hall from
>> time to time. The Sagamore Rowing Club has a boathouse at Coindre Hall.
>> It can get rough out there. I think there might have been a few
>> capsizings at the Roth Pond Regatta in Stony Brook as well :-)
>
> While waiting to see if my message to the St Anthony's board member gets a
> reply, & following your mention of Roth Pond Regatta, I took a squint at
> this:
> http://rothregatta.org/release.pdf
>
> I'm astonished by the open declaration therein (with its extensive use of
> caps) that:
> "ROWING ACTIVITIES INVOLVE RISKS AND DANGERS OF SERIOUS BODILY INJURY,
> INCLUDING PERMANENT DISABILITY, PARALYSIS AND DEATH (“RISKS”); (b) these
> Risks and dangers may be caused by my child or ward’s own actions, or
> inactions, the action or inactions of others participating in the
> activity, the condition in which the activity takes place, or THE
> NEGLIGENCE OF THE “RELEASEES” NAMED BELOW; (c) there may be OTHER RISKS
> AND SOCIAL AND ECONOMIC LOSSES either not known to me or not readily
> foreseeable at this time; and I FULLY ACCEPT AND ASSUME ALL SUCH RISKS AND
> ALL RESPONSIBILITY FOR LOSSES, COSTS, AND DAMAGES I incur as a result of
> my child or ward’s participation in the Activity."
>
> DO US rowing organisers believe they run such a risky sport as to require
> such waivers? I seriously doubt that, following a serious accident, those
> waivers will be worth the paper they're written on, especially when it
> affects the safety of kids.
>
> While foolishly waving a flag to signal deadly risks in a sport they
> otherwise promote as clean & safe, how can the USRA & other organising
> bodies still fail to get the safety message - to the extent that they
> actively encourage & permit rowers of all ages to go afloat in boats that
> most rowers had never thought might fill & sink? What's wrong with rowing
> that folk run cravenly to shelter behind verbose legal wallpaper, yet lack
> the motivation & nous to see & rectify this fundamental equipment flaw
> which is the most likely cause for them to seek legal waivers?
>
> Carl
>
> --
> Carl Douglas Racing Shells -

Well, in this case all of the craft are made out of cardboard and styrofoam
is prohibited, so some of those warnings might be necessary! Luckily, Roth
Pond is a fairly small body of water between dormitories.




06 May 2008 01:06:32
Andrew
Re: Yet Another US Rescue

> However, the administration and coaches concerned have absolutely no right=

> to be 'ignorant' or 'naive' about rowing safety - if indeed that is the
> case. =A0Whether professional or volunteers, whether dealing with adults o=
r
> children, whether in competition or training - it is their duty (moral and=

> legal) to know all there is to know about rowing safety to date, and to ta=
ke
> all reasonable steps to implement it. =A0If you don't know the stuff, you
> shouldn't be doing that job.
>
> Jane and Stephen

But surely if one is ignorant of something then one often does not
know that one is ignorant?
Which is why the NGB has to provide sound advice?

Andrew


06 May 2008 10:52:39
Stephen and Jane
Re: Yet Another US Rescue

Andrew wrote:
>> However, the administration and coaches concerned have absolutely no
>> right to be 'ignorant' or 'naive' about rowing safety - if indeed
>> that is the case. Whether professional or volunteers, whether
>> dealing with adults or children, whether in competition or training
>> - it is their duty (moral and legal) to know all there is to know
>> about rowing safety to date, and to take all reasonable steps to
>> implement it. If you don't know the stuff, you shouldn't be doing
>> that job.
>>
>> Jane and Stephen
>
> But surely if one is ignorant of something then one often does not
> know that one is ignorant?
> Which is why the NGB has to provide sound advice?
>
> Andrew

Indeed. The USRowing website has quite a comprehensive safety section, with
a wide range of background advice and topical updates.

There is a link to the FISA Minimum Guidelines for the Safe Practice of
Rowing, and even a link to our own Cold Water Survival document.

Sully's point about experience is spot on, but there seems to be little
excuse for anyone in charge of rowing programmes in the US to not even know
what it is that they should know.

J and S




06 May 2008 11:51:45
Carl Douglas
Re: Yet Another US Rescue

Andrew wrote:
>>However, the administration and coaches concerned have absolutely no right
>>to be 'ignorant' or 'naive' about rowing safety - if indeed that is the
>>case. Whether professional or volunteers, whether dealing with adults or
>>children, whether in competition or training - it is their duty (moral and
>>legal) to know all there is to know about rowing safety to date, and to take
>>all reasonable steps to implement it. If you don't know the stuff, you
>>shouldn't be doing that job.
>>
>>Jane and Stephen
>
>
> But surely if one is ignorant of something then one often does not
> know that one is ignorant?
> Which is why the NGB has to provide sound advice?
>
> Andrew

Exactly!

But when "safety" within an NGB is run by folk for whom status (office,
blazer & tie) & self-importance are what most matters, then you have the
arrogantly foolish failing to lead those who may be unaware that they
themselves are blind.

This is the dreadful situation that we on RSR are collectively seeking
to address. In the UK we do now have the ARA scrabbling to be seen to
be doing something but, unfortunately, only because they are haunted by
the long-awaited, much delayed (& where the hell is it, pray?) Rowing
Safety Review. As always, that which is done reluctantly is done far
from well.

I've had a long learning process on safety with near-zero help from
those who pretend to run the show. In my time, in this & other water
sports, I've committed more safety goofs than most. And I freely admit
I've been lucky to come through unscathed. But I've tried to learn from
my mistakes, from the mistakes of others, from whatever expertise was
available &, ultimately, by applying common sense to this mix of
information.

One school of ancient Greek philosophy eschewed practical experiment &
the getting of hands dirty, preferring airy reasoning & intellectual
supposition. From such methods came nutty notions based on the supposed
elements of earth, air, fire & water, on the humours, on the myth of
phlogiston, on the need to bleed the already unwell, & all the vast rest
of that claptrap. In rowing, similarly patrician attitudes gave us mad
notions that all you had to do to stay alive was to hold onto your boat,
that fast boats could not be fully buoyant & that the right way to
rescue yourself was to swim to the bows & tow your boat ashore. All of
that has killed those who otherwise would have lived. And each time
such inane instruction has killed there have been cover-ups & victims
blamed - to protect those whose closed minds promoted the fatal advice,
whose neglect left others defenceless.

In science we do see a slow overturning of old & foolish views, always
hard won, sometimes against abusive rearguard actions of the old school.
It is, unfortunately, just the same slow process in rowing.

I have the dubious professional privilege of getting uncomfortably close
to some of the nasty & near-nasty things that go wrong in rowing.
Unlike the NGB prima donnas who have made a religion out of pretending
accidents don't happen, or when they do they should be quickly
forgotten, I try each time to learn better how we might avoid or prevent
such mishaps, or at least improve their outcomes. In that process I
apply engineering & technical knowledge to experience (which is how,
e.g., I worked out long ago that fours & eights needn't dump their crews
- as Archimedes could have told us over 2000 years ago.

Unless we start a) to properly record those events where things did go
wrong, b) to collate & analyse that evidence in a dispassionate &
intelligent way & c) at last get this process in the hands of competent
persons, we will continue to lose the vital evidence & rowing safety
will remain in the dark ages.

Cheers -
Carl

--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
Find: http://tinyurl.com/2tqujf
Email: carl@carldouglas.co.uk Tel: +44(0)1932-570946 Fax: -563682
URLs: www.carldouglas.co.uk (boats) & www.aerowing.co.uk (riggers)


06 May 2008 13:40:39
alston
Re: Yet Another US Rescue

A novice rower who has yet to capsize asks: how warm should the water
temperature be before rowing alone? Thanks.


06 May 2008 13:53:06
Mike Sullivan
Re: Yet Another US Rescue


"alston" <alstonshop@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:881c7a09-10a9-402c-a9ef-aacac8f0d730@8g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>A novice rower who has yet to capsize asks: how warm should the water
> temperature be before rowing alone? Thanks.

This is a great question and me trying to answer it illustrates
the difficulty in safety training. Your question generates more
questions:

1. what is your swimming ability?
2. what is your experience in water, been in cold water before?
3. what sort of body of water is it?
4. what sort of boat, you have yet to capsize, but have you ever tried to
get into your boat from swimming in the water?





06 May 2008 17:59:23
Re: Yet Another US Rescue

On May 6, 1:40=A0pm, alston <alstons...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> A novice rower who has yet to capsize asks: =A0how warm should the water
> temperature be before rowing alone? =A0Thanks.

If it isn't frozen, it's warm enough -- if you're wearing a drysuit
and something reasonably warm under it, and you have practiced getting
back into your boat in the drysuit in rough cold water, and you have a
safety line. Precautions vary for the value of "alone" - in a 3 foot
deep tree-lined canal, you're less likely to drown yourself than you
are when trying to cross Lake Superior.

Or, different answer: if you like to swim in it, it's warm enough.
Cold-water shock doesn't seem to kill people who routinely jump into
cold water.

Or, another different answer: don't row anything you CAN capsize
without company. Maybe rigger floats won't bother you. Trying to keep
them out of the water counts as practice.

Leaving all that aside, I wouldn't row a racing single alone and in
normal rowing gear unless the water was above 60 degrees F / 16
Celsius. I also wouldn't row a racing single alone and wearing jeans
unless you paid me big money.//Zeke Hoskin


06 May 2008 21:31:59
JD
Re: Yet Another US Rescue

On May 5, 1:14=A0pm, "Stephen and Jane"
<stephenDOTblock...@ukgateway.net > wrote:
> We partly agree but mostly disagree with what you say. =A0Tideway Umpire's=

> comment is probably born out of sheer frustration and anger that these
> things just keep on happening - which we also feel.
>
> However, the administration and coaches concerned have absolutely no right=

> to be 'ignorant' or 'naive' about rowing safety - if indeed that is the
> case. =A0Whether professional or volunteers, whether dealing with adults o=
r
> children, whether in competition or training - it is their duty (moral and=

> legal) to know all there is to know about rowing safety to date, and to ta=
ke
> all reasonable steps to implement it. =A0If you don't know the stuff, you
> shouldn't be doing that job.

Jane and Stephen:

Agreed. My comments toward TidewayUmpire were based on my belief that
they are not helpful in turning their leadership toward a strong
stance on safety. Probably no matter as no-one reads this but we happy
few.

I understand the frustration. I am very concerned about "the big one"
- a deadly mass swamping - happening in the US. With the sport
growing so quickly, it's just a matter of time before some unprepared
program desperate to get on the water gets caught. We have come so
close so often. I have fought to prevent it happening at a local
club where in some circles I and others are considered busybodies.
But it has gotten somewhat better. They just bought a quad with full
flotation.

JD


06 May 2008 21:36:30
JD
Re: Yet Another US Rescue

Rob:

I checked out an older one today. It had bulkheads under both ends of
each seat deck and good hatch covers. There is a hole for the speaker
cable and two small spaces where the bulkhead, inner skin and seat
deck meet. All can be caulked. I have seen others without a bulkhead
under the seatdeck on the stern side of each station.

JD

On May 5, 8:58=A0am, Rob Collings <robin.colli...@gmail.com > wrote:
> On 5 May, 14:29, JD <johnnda...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > From photos on their site,
> > they appear to row in Vespoli's which rarely have underseat
> > flotation.
>
> Don't they? I've only examined 3 close up and am left with some degree
> of uncertainty. These 3 (one 4+, two 2x/-) certainly have hatch covers
> and bulkheads (no idea if this is standard). However, they also have
> holes for cox box / stroke coach etc wiring which are approx 2cm
> diameter and not sealed at all. Not that long ago, I had a discussion
> as to whether they were bouyant with the conclusions that: we weren't
> sure either way; it would be easy to fill those holes and that it
> would pass muster at any SARA regatta. In spite of the holes, it
> *does* carry a "This boat meets the FISA standard" sticker. It
> certainly wouldn't remain floating for any significant length of time,
> but I'm pretty sure it would last more than long enough to reach
> safety anywhere most of us Scots are likely to row. But is it really
> bouyant?
>
> Rob.