30 Apr 2008 19:32:26
Robert Henderson
Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish


The volume of the criticism and the exigences of space make
it impossible for me to address most of the points raised in
the August issue. Consequently I shall concentrate my fire on
the article contributors, Mike Brearley and David Gower, and
two of the letter writers, Adrian Rollins and David Hammond,
who raise points of particular interest. But before I do that
let me offer a few comments about the subject in general and
the article in particular.

My purpose in writing was not to give gratuitous offence,
but to raise subjects which for an unconscionable time have
been placed beyond the reach of coherent public debate. Nor
is a refusal to discuss them in the long term interests of
blacks and Asians. Suppression of opinion may, like
appeasement, be a tactic, but it can never be a strategy
for it merely puts off an evil day.

It is an extraordinary fact that many cricket commentators,
including the editor of Wisden, have spoken and written
against the employment of immigrant players by England
without provoking a storm. Indeed, the remarks made by
Mathew Engel in this year's Wisden are arguably more
categoric than anything I have written.

As for the article's content, nowhere have I stated
categorically that either coloured players in general do
suffer, or any coloured player in particular has suffered,
from a lack of commitment. I have merely suggested it as a
possibility. My reference to Lewis and DeFreitas '...why
players such as DeFreitas and Lewis should not share the
mentality he [Goodwin] ascribes to the general West
Indian-derived population' is not a categoric statement of my
own belief but a reasonable point arising from the
discrepancy between Goodwin's claims of disaffection and his
assertion that 'surely no one would doubt that the players
[England caps of West Indian Ancestry] are proud to represent
England'. The article queried the commitment not only of
coloured players but also that of white mercenaries such as
Lamb and unequivocal Englishmen: '...perhaps even some of
the unequivocally English players lack a sense of pride in
playing for England.'

Whatever the cause, there is firm statistical evidence to
support the view that coloured players in England caps do not
perform well. [insert table]. As can be seen from the table
the overall performance of black and Asian England players
since 1975 has been consistently poor. I invite readers to
offer their explanations of why every single black and Asian
player selected for England in the past twenty years has
failed to make the Test grade.

To particular critics. Mr Rollins asked what do I know
about "Brixton, Hackney or any inner-city area heavily
populated by black people? The answer is a great deal. I have
lived and worked in such districts for most of my adult
life. (I am 47 and first came to London in 1965). This
experience has encompassed both South and North London. (I
currently live close to where the white schoolboy, Richard
Everitt was murdered by a gang of Asians.) Moreover, I have
the invaluable experience (denied to most) of years of work
as an Inland Revenue investigator in areas of substantial
black and Asian settlement. This alone has provided me with a
range and quantity of coloured contacts incomparably greater
than any white man could achieve in a private capacity.

But my relevant experience does not end there for I also
know the middle class side of the black and Asian coin,
having been at a private school and a university which were
both extremely mixed in race and culture. I wonder how many
of my white critics could match my practical knowledge of
blacks and Asians? Mr Brearley living in I believe Hampstead?
Mr Gower comfortably ensconced in the countryside?

As for Mr Rollins' concern about my drawing attention to the
racial imbalance of the Haringey college run by Reg Scarlett,
this imbalance is of obvious importance to my case, for the
absence of white pupils demonstrates prima facie the
separatist tendencies of blacks. A further dimension arises
because the college receives public money. Imagine the outcry
if few or no blacks and Asians attended a publicly funded
college in a very racially mixed area. Moreover, this outcry
probably would be headed by Mr Scarlett who is vociferous in
his claims that blacks and Asians do not get a fair crack of
the cricketing whip in the English first class game (this
despite the fact that coloured players form more than ten
percent of the first class county groundstaffs, a percentage
which greatly exceeds their proportion of the population -
approx 6%). The absence of adverse media comment over the
years about the racial imbalance of the Haringey college is
beautifully indicative of the one-eyed attitude taken to race
in this country by both politicians and those who control
the media.

The first point to note about Mike Brearley is that he is not
a disinterested party, being married to an Asian. Hence, he
could scarcely be expected to say anything other than he has.
His mentality may be judged by the fact that he actually
invents an excuse for parading his liberal credentials by
saying that his ambivalence at times about his commitment to
this country may "as he [Henderson] suggests, arise from
guilt." Nowhere in the article did I say or imply that home
raised whites fail to commit themselves to England because of
guilt. I merely pointed out that incessant denigration of
their culture and history could demoralise some Englishmen.




Mr Brearley claims that I am confused in my use of the words
blood, instinct and biology. In fact, nowhere do I refer to
blood. I submitted the article to David Frith under the
heading 'Racism and national identity'. The title 'Is it in
the blood?' is the editor's.

As for instinct and biology, Mr Brearley really should
understand (because of his philosophical training)) that
some words have both a common use and a technical or
academic use. I sincerely doubt whether many readers
honestly thought that I meant anything by biology and
instinct other than a loyalty so inbred by cultural
conditioning that it becomes second nature.

But even from Mr Brearley's academic standpoint there are
difficulties with the words for both are man-made constructs
and consequently subject to redefinition and interpretation,
particularly by academics. The intellectual history of
instinct is that it has moved from a simple idea of innate
behaviour instilled by God (e.g. Descartes) through the idea
of instinct as a 'prime mover' (e.g. Freud) onto the
genetically determined (e.g. Lorenz) before rather going out
of favour at the present time, which if it examines the
matter at all tends to do so with the intention of untangling
the innate, reflex and motivational aspects of apparently
instinctive behaviour rather than searching for a single
grand explanation.

Mr Brearley's concept of biology as a nicely separated
subject excluding mental and sociological events is simply a
result of the rigid intellectual compartmentalisation which
has been the curse of western thought for at least a
century. Unless a man wishes to deny a causal linkage
between mind and body, for example, the production of the
hormone adrenaline in circumstances of heightened awareness,
it necessarily follows that a man's mental and social life
is the product of his material existence. Hence, in a general
sense everything a man does is biological. Where, I wonder,
would Mr Brearley place the study of animal behaviour? As
part of biology or outside biology? If inside, why should
the study of human behaviour be then excluded? Certainly,
there is no academic consensus that human behaviour should be
excluded from biology. Edward Wilson's famous 'Sociobiology'
makes this very point.

As for David Gower, readers may judge his confidence in his
own arguments by the fact that when I wrote to him offering
to appear on his Radio 5 programme to debate the matter, I
did not even receive the courtesy of a reply. Mr Gower
proceeded to "discuss" the question on air without a single
word in my support being uttered. (This, I believe, is what
the BBC terms "balance".)


But there is vastly more to Mr Gower's position than meets
the eye. Four years ago I circulated an article, which
David Frith published as 'A fundamental malaise', to many
prominent cricketers and cricket correspondents. This piece
stated my objections to foreign players in the England side
in no uncertain terms. Readers unfamiliar with the article
may get an idea of its flavour from a short quote: "The
qualification for England should be the same as that which I
would consider a sane basis for the citizenship of any
country, namely the imbibing of a culture".

Mr Gower wrote to me that 'A fundamental malaise' contained
"very keen observations" and said that he was sure my "points
[the ill effects of foreigners in the England side] must
certainly be relevant". Readers may wish to ask themselves
whether Mr Gower has since undergone a Pauline conversion or
has decided that his media career is more important than
his beliefs. (He would, of course, become a non-person as far
as the media is concerned if he stuck to his beliefs). The
sincerity of his present outrage may be judged by the fact
that he wrote to me between the publication of 'A fundamental
malaise' and 'Is it in the blood?' thanking me warmly for
writing an article in his defence. In other words, I did not
become persona non grata with Mr Gower until the media
howling began after the publishing of 'Is it in the blood'?

David Hammond is worth a mention as an example of the
substitute-abuse-for-argument school of critic. He writes
"nobody with even a modicum of knowledge or intelligence can
refer to the 'myth' of oppression and exploitation." In fact,
the manner in which slavery and colonialism are both taught
in British schools and portrayed in the media is mythical,
for the presentation is so partial that all hope of an honest
understanding of the subjects is lost. For example, the
British slave trade is taken out of its historical context,
depicted as uniquely evil regardless of the fact that most
societies at most times have practised some form of legal or
customary unfreedom whether it be full blown chattel slavery,
serfdom, debt bondage, indenturing or a caste system, the
necessary complicity of black slave dealers is ignored or
explained as white corruption of naturally decent blacks and
the primary role taken by the British in the suppression of
slavery generally might as well never have happened for all
the attention it gets.

As for my claim that camaraderie is best generated within a
team of like individuals, it is unreasonable to dismiss out
of hand the suggestion that a man's race or culture may have
an effect on the social dynamics of groups. At the spine of
human social behaviour lies a very strong bias in choosing
companions. Human beings select their associates, when
given the chance, by a form of selection known as
assortative. (Most mammals also practise such selection when
choosing a mate) This is an ugly piece of jargon which means
in plain English that like tends to go to like.
Overwhelmingly people choose mates and friends who resemble
themselves in matters such as race, physical type, culture,
education and class. One of the strongest causes of selection
is physical race. Assortative selection alone is a massive
potential barrier to the development of team spirit in a
mixed side.

Nationality, in the emotional rather than legal sense, is not
something which can be put on and taken off like a coat. It
is a fearsomely intricate product of social experience, part
of which is the response of others. Qualifications based on
legal definitions of nationality, birth or residence are
practically irrelevant in the context of national sporting
teams, for the emotional commitment and sense of oneness,
which are an essential part of a successful national side,
cannot be gained so mechanically. And that is often true even
where a conscious decision to emigrate permanently has been
made by a player's parents. A sense of national place is
demonstrably not simply derived from living in a country -
as Wellington said to those who insisted on calling him an
Irishman, 'Just because a man is born in a stable it does not
make him a horse.'

The concerted media attempt to shout me down is not merely
shameful but positively dangerous, for if free expression may
be denied to one man it may be denied to any man. It is time
to end the "anti-racist" shouting and begin honestly
addressing painful realities. One thing needs to be
understood above all: you may have a multicultural state, but
you cannot have a multicultural nation. It is an oxymoron.

Let me end with a quote from Milton which I think should be
pinned to all editors desks and engraved on all men's minds:

' ... though all the winds of doctrine were let loose upon
the earth, so truth be in the field [and] we do injuriously
by licensing and prohibiting to misdoubt her strength. Let
her and falsehood grapple; who ever knew truth put to the
worse, in a free and open encounter...' (Areogapitica)

--
Robert Henderson
Blair Scandal website: http://www.geocities.com/blairscandal/
Personal website: http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk


01 May 2008 07:35:41
Toby
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

Robert Henderson wrote:
<snip >
I have
> lived and worked in such districts for most of my adult
> life. (I am 47 and first came to London in 1965). This
> experience has encompassed both South and North London.
<snip >

Moving into London at 18 years old - you obviously haven't had the same
upbringing Robert ;-) Had you have moved to London when you were say 5
or 6 - you may have had the upbringing!


01 May 2008 02:13:12
Richard Dixon
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

On 30 Apr, 19:32, Robert Henderson <phi...@anywhere.demon.co.uk >
wrote:

> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 As =A0for =A0the =A0article's =A0content, =A0 nowhere =
=A0have =A0I =A0 stated
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 categorically =A0that =A0either coloured players =A0in=
=A0general =A0do
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 suffer, =A0 or any =A0coloured player in particular ha=
s suffered,
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 from =A0a lack of commitment. =A0I have merely suggest=
ed it as =A0a
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 possibility.

Good, let's leaving hanging there and then we can all move on rather
than continually digging it up.

Richard


01 May 2008 08:33:26
Robert Henderson
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

In message <u-mdnXRmCoBV-YTVnZ2dnUVZ8v3inZ2d@giganews.com >, Toby
<toby.briggs@gmail.com > writes
>Robert Henderson wrote:
><snip>
> I have
>> lived and worked in such districts for most of my adult
>> life. (I am 47 and first came to London in 1965). This
>> experience has encompassed both South and North London.
><snip>
>
>Moving into London at 18 years old

17 actually. No wonder you had trouble with the maths tutors at
Loughborough. RH

>- you obviously haven't had the same upbringing Robert ;-) Had you have
>moved to London when you were say 5 or 6 - you may have had the
>upbringing!

I realise that a Bsc Loughborough (failed) mind will not be able to
comprehend the idea of a nation or have an instinctive understanding of
sociology and psychology.... RH
--
Robert Henderson
Blair Scandal website: http://www.geocities.com/blairscandal/
Personal website: http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk


01 May 2008 10:39:37
Toby
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

Robert Henderson wrote:
> In message <u-mdnXRmCoBV-YTVnZ2dnUVZ8v3inZ2d@giganews.com>, Toby
> <toby.briggs@gmail.com> writes
>> Robert Henderson wrote:
>> <snip>
>> I have
>>> lived and worked in such districts for most of my adult
>>> life. (I am 47 and first came to London in 1965). This
>>> experience has encompassed both South and North London.
>> <snip>
>>
>> Moving into London at 18 years old
>
> 17 actually. No wonder you had trouble with the maths tutors at
> Loughborough. RH

Wiki has you born in 1947, so 1965 you would have been 18 at some stage.

>
>> - you obviously haven't had the same upbringing Robert ;-) Had you
>> have moved to London when you were say 5 or 6 - you may have had the
>> upbringing!
>
> I realise that a Bsc Loughborough (failed) mind will not be able to
> comprehend the idea of a nation or have an instinctive understanding of
> sociology and psychology.... RH

Erm Robert - the ;-) meant it was a piss take.

Note to self - sad old fart Robert Henderson does not understand the
meaning of a piss take.


01 May 2008 03:05:12
Gavin Cawley
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

On 1 May, 10:39, Toby <toby.bri...@gmail.com > wrote:
> Robert Henderson wrote:
> > In message <u-mdnXRmCoBV-YTVnZ2dnUVZ8v3in...@giganews.com>, Toby
> > <toby.bri...@gmail.com> writes
> >> Robert Henderson wrote:
> >> <snip>
> >> I have
> >>> lived and worked in such districts for most of my adult
> >>> life. (I am 47 and first came to London in 1965). This
> >>> experience has encompassed both South and North London.
> >> <snip>
>
> >> Moving into London at 18 years old
>
> > 17 actually. No wonder you had trouble with the maths tutors at
> > Loughborough. RH
>
> Wiki has you born in 1947, so 1965 you would have been 18 at some stage.
>
>
>
> >> - you obviously haven't had the same upbringing Robert ;-) Had you
> >> have moved to London when you were say 5 or 6 - you may have had the
> >> upbringing!
>
> > I realise that a Bsc Loughborough (failed) mind will not be able to
> > comprehend the idea of a nation or have an instinctive understanding of
> > sociology and psychology.... RH
>
> Erm Robert - the ;-) meant it was a piss take.
>
> Note to self - sad old fart Robert Henderson does not understand the
> meaning of a piss take.

Ah the "only joking ploy" yet again ;o)



01 May 2008 11:25:41
Toby
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

Gavin Cawley wrote:
> On 1 May, 10:39, Toby <toby.bri...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Robert Henderson wrote:
>>> In message <u-mdnXRmCoBV-YTVnZ2dnUVZ8v3in...@giganews.com>, Toby
>>> <toby.bri...@gmail.com> writes
>>>> Robert Henderson wrote:
>>>> <snip>
>>>> I have
>>>>> lived and worked in such districts for most of my adult
>>>>> life. (I am 47 and first came to London in 1965). This
>>>>> experience has encompassed both South and North London.
>>>> <snip>
>>>> Moving into London at 18 years old
>>> 17 actually. No wonder you had trouble with the maths tutors at
>>> Loughborough. RH
>> Wiki has you born in 1947, so 1965 you would have been 18 at some stage.
>>
>>
>>
>>>> - you obviously haven't had the same upbringing Robert ;-) Had you
>>>> have moved to London when you were say 5 or 6 - you may have had the
>>>> upbringing!
>>> I realise that a Bsc Loughborough (failed) mind will not be able to
>>> comprehend the idea of a nation or have an instinctive understanding of
>>> sociology and psychology.... RH
>> Erm Robert - the ;-) meant it was a piss take.
>>
>> Note to self - sad old fart Robert Henderson does not understand the
>> meaning of a piss take.
>
> Ah the "only joking ploy" yet again ;o)
>

lol! It's sad isn't it - I thought I did well to work out that he was
(c.) 18 when he moved to London! I used my fingers AND toes to work that
one out.

It is sad that an educated man has to retort to the "uneducated" <his
view > so much! I guess he doesn't get out much.


01 May 2008 04:09:14
Gavin Cawley
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

On May 1, 11:25 am, Toby <toby.bri...@gmail.com > wrote:
> Gavin Cawley wrote:
> > On 1 May, 10:39, Toby <toby.bri...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Robert Henderson wrote:
> >>> In message <u-mdnXRmCoBV-YTVnZ2dnUVZ8v3in...@giganews.com>, Toby
> >>> <toby.bri...@gmail.com> writes
> >>>> Robert Henderson wrote:
> >>>> <snip>
> >>>> I have
> >>>>> lived and worked in such districts for most of my adult
> >>>>> life. (I am 47 and first came to London in 1965). This
> >>>>> experience has encompassed both South and North London.
> >>>> <snip>
> >>>> Moving into London at 18 years old
> >>> 17 actually. No wonder you had trouble with the maths tutors at
> >>> Loughborough. RH
> >> Wiki has you born in 1947, so 1965 you would have been 18 at some stage.
>
> >>>> - you obviously haven't had the same upbringing Robert ;-) Had you
> >>>> have moved to London when you were say 5 or 6 - you may have had the
> >>>> upbringing!
> >>> I realise that a Bsc Loughborough (failed) mind will not be able to
> >>> comprehend the idea of a nation or have an instinctive understanding of
> >>> sociology and psychology.... RH
> >> Erm Robert - the ;-) meant it was a piss take.
>
> >> Note to self - sad old fart Robert Henderson does not understand the
> >> meaning of a piss take.
>
> > Ah the "only joking ploy" yet again ;o)
>
> lol! It's sad isn't it - I thought I did well to work out that he was
> (c.) 18 when he moved to London! I used my fingers AND toes to work that
> one out.
>
> It is sad that an educated man has to retort to the "uneducated" <his
> view> so much! I guess he doesn't get out much.

Especially as you have been running rings around him, especially on
the passport issue where you had him reversing his position at least
twice ;o)


01 May 2008 12:32:00
Toby
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

Gavin Cawley wrote:

> Especially as you have been running rings around him, especially on
> the passport issue where you had him reversing his position at least
> twice ;o)

Funny thing is because he couldn't answer it properly, he had to resort
to my failings as a student!

Am I bovvered?! heh


01 May 2008 05:15:36
Richard Dixon
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

On 1 May, 12:32, Toby <toby.bri...@gmail.com > wrote:
> Gavin Cawley wrote:
> > Especially as you have been running rings around him, especially on
> > the passport issue where you had him reversing his position at least
> > twice ;o)
>
> Funny thing is because he couldn't answer it properly, he had to resort
> to my failings as a student!

Nobody's perfect. Although I know someone who thinks he is.

Richard


01 May 2008 11:54:48
Robert Henderson
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

In message <4ZOdncrKV6xEEoTVnZ2dneKdnZzinZ2d@giganews.com >, Toby
<toby.briggs@gmail.com > writes
>Robert Henderson wrote:
>> In message <u-mdnXRmCoBV-YTVnZ2dnUVZ8v3inZ2d@giganews.com>, Toby
>><toby.briggs@gmail.com> writes
>>> Robert Henderson wrote:
>>> <snip>
>>> I have
>>>> lived and worked in such districts for most of my adult
>>>> life. (I am 47 and first came to London in 1965). This
>>>> experience has encompassed both South and North London.
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>> Moving into London at 18 years old
>> 17 actually. No wonder you had trouble with the maths tutors at
>>Loughborough. RH
>
>Wiki has you born in 1947, so 1965 you would have been 18 at some stage.
>
>>
Treats Wipedia, the font of all misinformation, as gospel. ROTFL! RH

>>> - you obviously haven't had the same upbringing Robert ;-) Had you
>>>have moved to London when you were say 5 or 6 - you may have had the
>>>upbringing!
>> I realise that a Bsc Loughborough (failed) mind will not be able to
>>comprehend the idea of a nation or have an instinctive understanding
>>sociology and psychology.... RH
>
>Erm Robert - the ;-) meant it was a piss take.
>
>Note to self - sad old fart Robert Henderson does not understand the
>meaning of a piss take.


Ah, the old "I was only joking" line. RH
--
Robert Henderson
Blair Scandal website: http://www.geocities.com/blairscandal/
Personal website: http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk


01 May 2008 05:53:37
Gavin Cawley
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

On May 1, 11:54 am, Robert Henderson <phi...@anywhere.demon.co.uk >
wrote:
> In message <4ZOdncrKV6xEEoTVnZ2dneKdnZzin...@giganews.com>, Toby
> <toby.bri...@gmail.com> writes
>
> >Robert Henderson wrote:
> >> In message <u-mdnXRmCoBV-YTVnZ2dnUVZ8v3in...@giganews.com>, Toby
> >><toby.bri...@gmail.com> writes
> >>> Robert Henderson wrote:
> >>> <snip>
> >>> I have
> >>>> lived and worked in such districts for most of my adult
> >>>> life. (I am 47 and first came to London in 1965). This
> >>>> experience has encompassed both South and North London.
> >>> <snip>
>
> >>> Moving into London at 18 years old
> >> 17 actually. No wonder you had trouble with the maths tutors at
> >>Loughborough. RH
>
> >Wiki has you born in 1947, so 1965 you would have been 18 at some stage.
>
> Treats Wipedia, the font of all misinformation, as gospel. ROTFL! RH
>
> >>> - you obviously haven't had the same upbringing Robert ;-) Had you
> >>>have moved to London when you were say 5 or 6 - you may have had the
> >>>upbringing!
> >> I realise that a Bsc Loughborough (failed) mind will not be able to
> >>comprehend the idea of a nation or have an instinctive understanding
> >>sociology and psychology.... RH
>
> >Erm Robert - the ;-) meant it was a piss take.
>
> >Note to self - sad old fart Robert Henderson does not understand the
> >meaning of a piss take.
>
> Ah, the old "I was only joking" line. RH

ROTFLMAO, well who could have predicted that response? Oh yes, I
did! ;o)



01 May 2008 14:13:08
Toby
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

Robert Henderson wrote:
> In message <4ZOdncrKV6xEEoTVnZ2dneKdnZzinZ2d@giganews.com>, Toby
> <toby.briggs@gmail.com> writes
>> Robert Henderson wrote:
>>> In message <u-mdnXRmCoBV-YTVnZ2dnUVZ8v3inZ2d@giganews.com>, Toby
>>> <toby.briggs@gmail.com> writes
>>>> Robert Henderson wrote:
>>>> <snip>
>>>> I have
>>>>> lived and worked in such districts for most of my
>>>>> adult
>>>>> life. (I am 47 and first came to London in 1965).
>>>>> This
>>>>> experience has encompassed both South and North London.
>>>> <snip>
>>>>
>>>> Moving into London at 18 years old
>>> 17 actually. No wonder you had trouble with the maths tutors at
>>> Loughborough. RH
>>
>> Wiki has you born in 1947, so 1965 you would have been 18 at some stage.
>>
>>>
> Treats Wipedia, the font of all misinformation, as gospel. ROTFL! RH
>

So then Robert - what year were you born in? And I'm sure you'll go and
change things and say you were born in 1948 to prove yourself right!


01 May 2008 14:02:04
Robert Henderson
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

In message
<33f13252-eaa0-4162-b1f2-9a8dc8e2f836@l42g2000hsc.googlegroups.com >,
Gavin Cawley <GavinCawley@googlemail.com > writes
>> one out.
>>
>> It is sad that an educated man has to retort to the "uneducated" <his
>> view> so much! I guess he doesn't get out much.
>
>Especially as you have been running rings around him, especially on the
>passport issue where you had him reversing his position at least twice
>;o)


"Prepare the padded cell, nurse." RH
--
Robert Henderson
Blair Scandal website: http://www.geocities.com/blairscandal/
Personal website: http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk


01 May 2008 14:02:48
Robert Henderson
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

In message <S-WdnazVBoqsN4TVnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@giganews.com >, Toby
<toby.briggs@gmail.com > writes
>Gavin Cawley wrote:
>
>> Especially as you have been running rings around him, especially on
>> the passport issue where you had him reversing his position at least
>> twice ;o)
>
>Funny thing is because he couldn't answer it properly, he had to resort
>to my failings as a student!
>
>Am I bovvered?! heh

Deeply. You know you were tested and found wanting. . RH
--
Robert Henderson
Blair Scandal website: http://www.geocities.com/blairscandal/
Personal website: http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk


01 May 2008 14:03:06
Robert Henderson
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

In message
<a1355f24-15ce-4d1e-a5f2-96c28497f2b2@e39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com >,
Richard Dixon <rdngemail@yahoo.co.uk > writes
>> > the passport issue where you had him reversing his position at least
>> > twice ;o)
>>
>> Funny thing is because he couldn't answer it properly, he had to resort
>> to my failings as a student!
>
>Nobody's perfect. Although I know someone who thinks he is.
>
>Richard

Do stop gazing in the mirror. RH
--
Robert Henderson
Blair Scandal website: http://www.geocities.com/blairscandal/
Personal website: http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk


01 May 2008 15:46:01
Toby
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

Robert Henderson wrote:
> In message <S-WdnazVBoqsN4TVnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@giganews.com>, Toby
> <toby.briggs@gmail.com> writes
>> Gavin Cawley wrote:
>>
>>> Especially as you have been running rings around him, especially on
>>> the passport issue where you had him reversing his position at least
>>> twice ;o)
>>
>> Funny thing is because he couldn't answer it properly, he had to
>> resort to my failings as a student!
>>
>> Am I bovvered?! heh
>
> Deeply. You know you were tested and found wanting. . RH

You're pretty far from the truth, am not bothered at all. Just because I
didn't want to give you full details for why I failed, you decided to
make your own conclusions. Only you will believe them, so as long as
your happy with your own conclusions, then that's good. Is it the truth? No.


01 May 2008 08:40:39
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

That's lovely, Robert, but how, exactly, does it make me look stupid?
You seem to have confused Frith's not supporting your views with
Frith's not publishing you.


01 May 2008 09:02:22
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

On May 1, 5:40 pm, I wrote:
> That's lovely, Robert, but how, exactly, does it make me look stupid?
> You seem to have confused Frith's not supporting your views

I refer, of course, to those expressed in "Is it in the blood".

> with Frith's not publishing you.

Evoe,
Rodney Ulyate


01 May 2008 15:29:47
Robert Henderson
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

In message
<f473a3f5-bb10-4bb7-9394-0a609c33a469@m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com >,
Gavin Cawley <GavinCawley@googlemail.com > writes
>>
>> Ah, the old "I was only joking" line. RH
>
>ROTFLMAO, well who could have predicted that response? Oh yes, I did!
>;o)
>
Note: The subject GEDi responds as predicted to targeted stimulus. RH
--
Robert Henderson
Blair Scandal website: http://www.geocities.com/blairscandal/
Personal website: http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk


01 May 2008 15:37:55
Robert Henderson
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

In message <OZ-dnQPLh_F4XITVRVnyjgA@giganews.com >, Toby
<toby.briggs@gmail.com > writes
>>>>>> experience has encompassed both South and North London.
>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>
>>>>> Moving into London at 18 years old
>>>> 17 actually. No wonder you had trouble with the maths tutors at
>>>>Loughborough. RH
>>>
>>> Wiki has you born in 1947, so 1965 you would have been 18 at some stage.
>>>
>>>>
>> Treats Wipedia, the font of all misinformation, as gospel. ROTFL! RH
>>
>
>So then Robert - what year were you born in? And I'm sure you'll go and
>change things and say you were born in 1948 to prove yourself right!

I was born in 1947 but that does not mean I was 18 when I came to
London, young BLF. RH

--
Robert Henderson
Blair Scandal website: http://www.geocities.com/blairscandal/
Personal website: http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk


01 May 2008 17:29:48
Toby
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

Robert Henderson wrote:
> In message <OZ-dnQPLh_F4XITVRVnyjgA@giganews.com>, Toby
> <toby.briggs@gmail.com> writes
>>>>>>> experience has encompassed both South and North London.
>>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Moving into London at 18 years old
>>>>> 17 actually. No wonder you had trouble with the maths tutors at
>>>>> Loughborough. RH
>>>>
>>>> Wiki has you born in 1947, so 1965 you would have been 18 at some
>>>> stage.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>> Treats Wipedia, the font of all misinformation, as gospel. ROTFL! RH
>>>
>>
>> So then Robert - what year were you born in? And I'm sure you'll go
>> and change things and say you were born in 1948 to prove yourself right!
>
> I was born in 1947 but that does not mean I was 18 when I came to
> London, young BLF. RH
>

Robert, you are seriously sad to say that Wiki is the font of all
misinformation, when they've got your birth year correct?!

Sigh. But sadly you'll try anything to knock someone down!


01 May 2008 17:26:53
Robert Henderson
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

In message <frGdnSdqQc02SoTVRVnyjwA@giganews.com >, Toby
<toby.briggs@gmail.com > writes
>>> Am I bovvered?! heh
>> Deeply. You know you were tested and found wanting. . RH
>
>You're pretty far from the truth, am not bothered at all.


'Course you're not, BLF, 'course you're not. RH

>Just because I didn't want to give you full details for why I failed,
>you decided to make your own conclusions. Only you will believe them,
>so as long as your happy with your own conclusions, then that's good.
>Is it the truth? No.

--
Robert Henderson
Blair Scandal website: http://www.geocities.com/blairscandal/
Personal website: http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk


01 May 2008 17:27:32
Robert Henderson
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

In message
<64133729-b51b-4b65-b4c1-d262d8b4424b@34g2000hsh.googlegroups.com >,
rodney.ulyate@gmail.com writes
>That's lovely, Robert, but how, exactly, does it make me look stupid?
>You seem to have confused Frith's not supporting your views with
>Frith's not publishing you.

I suggest you keep reading what I have written until you understand it.
RH

--
Robert Henderson
Blair Scandal website: http://www.geocities.com/blairscandal/
Personal website: http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk


01 May 2008 19:30:15
Richard Dixon
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

Robert Henderson <philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk > wrote in
news:ZOgmGjhbPdGIFwYF@anywhere.demon.co.uk:

> In message
> <f473a3f5-bb10-4bb7-9394-0a609c33a469@m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
> Gavin Cawley <GavinCawley@googlemail.com> writes
>>>
>>> Ah, the old "I was only joking" line. RH
>>
>>ROTFLMAO, well who could have predicted that response? Oh yes, I did!
>>;o)
>>
> Note: The subject GEDi responds as predicted to targeted stimulus. RH

We're doing well on Henderson Bingo today - we've had a "Status Quo" (5
points), a "Do Stop Projecting" (10 points), the "Hospital put-down" (15
points) and, as above the somewhat rarer "Subject responds to..." (25
points). Do try and be more original in future.

Richard


01 May 2008 20:15:05
Andy Walker
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

In article <Xns9A91D17D969A6rdngemailyahoocouk@80.5.182.99 >,
Richard Dixon <rdngemail@yahoo.co.uk > wrote:
>We're doing well on Henderson Bingo today [...].

Oh! Did you not realise that half the fun was that RH didn't
know how many points each phrase scored, so was unable to bias his
answers? Now we have to wait for him to forget again before circulating
our league tables. I propose a 10 "status quo" penalty for RD.

--
Andy Walker
Nottingham


01 May 2008 20:16:45
Richard Dixon
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

anw@cuboid.uk (Andy Walker) wrote in news:fvd8c9$shk$2$8300dec7
@news.demon.co.uk:

> Oh! Did you not realise that half the fun was that RH didn't
> know how many points each phrase scored, so was unable to bias his
> answers? Now we have to wait for him to forget again before circulating
> our league tables. I propose a 10 "status quo" penalty for RD.

Oh bugger. RD


01 May 2008 20:17:32
Richard Dixon
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

Robert Henderson <philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk > wrote in
news:3XE9AecK+bGIFwdD@anywhere.demon.co.uk:

>>Richard
>
> Do stop gazing in the mirror. RH

Of course, the old playground mirror favourite too. I think we have a full
house, Andy!

Richard


01 May 2008 22:05:43
max.it
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

On Thu, 1 May 2008 17:27:32 +0100, Robert Henderson
<philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk > wrote:

>In message
><64133729-b51b-4b65-b4c1-d262d8b4424b@34g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
>rodney.ulyate@gmail.com writes
>>That's lovely, Robert, but how, exactly, does it make me look stupid?
>>You seem to have confused Frith's not supporting your views with
>>Frith's not publishing you.
>
>I suggest you keep reading what I have written until you understand it.
>RH
>

In the blood was far too detailed for Wisden.

Paul Stafford is much simpler to understand regarding Ed Joyce.

" The ICC qualifying tournament in 2005 was part of the same World
Cricket Cup competition. No competition anywhere in the world allows a
player to play in a Cup game for one team and switch to another team
in the latter stages. So why are England allowed to take the pick of
our best players yet we can’t have them back when they don’t want them
anymore?"

max.it

>--
>Robert Henderson
>Blair Scandal website: http://www.geocities.com/blairscandal/
>Personal website: http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk



01 May 2008 18:12:22
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

On May 1, 6:27 pm, Robert Henderson <phi...@anywhere.demon.co.uk >
wrote:
> In message
> <64133729-b51b-4b65-b4c1-d262d8b44...@34g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
> rodney.uly...@gmail.com writes
> >That's lovely, Robert, but how, exactly, does it make me look stupid?
> >You seem to have confused Frith's not supporting your views with
> >Frith's not publishing you.
> I suggest you keep reading what I have written until you understand it.
> RH

I suggest you stop wasting our time. Put up or shut up.

Kindest,
Rodney Ulyate


01 May 2008 19:24:13
Robert Henderson
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

In message <FdqdnSpNLp5gcoTVnZ2dnUVZ8h6dnZ2d@giganews.com >, Toby
<toby.briggs@gmail.com > writes
>>
>
>Robert, you are seriously sad to say that Wiki is the font of all
>misinformation, when they've got your birth year correct?!

Sigh. That had nothing to do with my point, that point being Wikepedia's
general unreliability, young BLF. RH

>
>Sigh. But sadly you'll try anything to knock someone down!

--
Robert Henderson
Blair Scandal website: http://www.geocities.com/blairscandal/
Personal website: http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk


01 May 2008 23:22:30
Gavin Cawley
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

On May 1, 3:29 pm, Robert Henderson <phi...@anywhere.demon.co.uk >
wrote:
> In message
> <f473a3f5-bb10-4bb7-9394-0a609c33a...@m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
> Gavin Cawley <GavinCaw...@googlemail.com> writes
>
> >> Ah, the old "I was only joking" line. RH
>
> >ROTFLMAO, well who could have predicted that response? Oh yes, I did!
> >;o)
>
> Note: The subject GEDi responds as predicted to targeted stimulus. RH

Except I published my prediction of your response before you made it.
You on the other hand can only claim to have predicted mine after I
had made it. I wonder which is more credible, LOL!



02 May 2008 07:30:44
Toby
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

Robert Henderson wrote:
> In message <frGdnSdqQc02SoTVRVnyjwA@giganews.com>, Toby
> <toby.briggs@gmail.com> writes
>>>> Am I bovvered?! heh
>>> Deeply. You know you were tested and found wanting. . RH
>>
>> You're pretty far from the truth, am not bothered at all.
>
>
> 'Course you're not, BLF, 'course you're not. RH
>

:-S you are a strange man.


02 May 2008 07:35:31
Toby
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

Robert Henderson wrote:
> In message <FdqdnSpNLp5gcoTVnZ2dnUVZ8h6dnZ2d@giganews.com>, Toby
> <toby.briggs@gmail.com> writes
>>>
>>
>> Robert, you are seriously sad to say that Wiki is the font of all
>> misinformation, when they've got your birth year correct?!
>
> Sigh. That had nothing to do with my point, that point being Wikepedia's
> general unreliability, young BLF. RH
>

No - you claimed that as I used Wiki to get the year of your birth, as
the font of all misinformation - yet the information was correct! Oh
dear SOF.


02 May 2008 05:55:40
Robert Henderson
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

In message <481a3db2.54646062@news.btinternet.com >, ?@?.?.invalid writes
>
>In the blood was far too detailed for Wisden.

By what criteria? It produced the greatest response ever according to
Frith. Dull or incomprehensible does not produce such a response. RH

>
>Paul Stafford is much simpler to understand regarding Ed Joyce.
>
>" The ICC qualifying tournament in 2005 was part of the same World
>Cricket Cup competition. No competition anywhere in the world allows a
>player to play in a Cup game for one team and switch to another team in
>the latter stages. So why are England allowed to take the pick of our
>best players yet we can’t have them back when they don’t want them
>anymore?"

Because it makes a mockery of the idea of national represenation. RH

>
>max.it

--
Robert Henderson
Blair Scandal website: http://www.geocities.com/blairscandal/
Personal website: http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk


02 May 2008 05:56:09
Robert Henderson
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

In message
<43404d81-ab21-4663-936f-f1d7ed9c49f1@27g2000hsf.googlegroups.com >,
rodney.ulyate@gmail.com writes
>> In message
>> <64133729-b51b-4b65-b4c1-d262d8b44...@34g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
>> rodney.uly...@gmail.com writes
>> >That's lovely, Robert, but how, exactly, does it make me look stupid?
>> >You seem to have confused Frith's not supporting your views with
>> >Frith's not publishing you.
>> I suggest you keep reading what I have written until you understand it.
>> RH
>
>I suggest you stop wasting our time. Put up or shut up.
>
>Kindest,
>Rodney Ulyate

Translation: Mr Confused refuses to read. RH
--
Robert Henderson
Blair Scandal website: http://www.geocities.com/blairscandal/
Personal website: http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk


02 May 2008 05:53:42
Robert Henderson
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

In message <Xns9A91D17D969A6rdngemailyahoocouk@80.5.182.99 >, Richard
Dixon <rdngemail@yahoo.co.uk > writes
>>>
>> Note: The subject GEDi responds as predicted to targeted stimulus. RH
>
>We're doing well on Henderson Bingo today - we've had a "Status Quo" (5
>points), a "Do Stop Projecting" (10 points), the "Hospital put-down"
>(15 points) and, as above the somewhat rarer "Subject responds to..."
>(25 points). Do try and be more original in future.
>
>Richard

Note: Subject R displays extreme stereotypical behaviour. RH
--
Robert Henderson
Blair Scandal website: http://www.geocities.com/blairscandal/
Personal website: http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk


02 May 2008 10:17:16
Robert Henderson
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

In message <1pCdnbveipKuK4fVnZ2dnUVZ8vydnZ2d@giganews.com >, Toby
<toby.briggs@gmail.com > writes
>>>
>>> Robert, you are seriously sad to say that Wiki is the font of all
>>>misinformation, when they've got your birth year correct?!
>> Sigh. That had nothing to do with my point, that point being
>>Wikepedia's general unreliability, young BLF. RH
>>
>
>No - you claimed that as I used Wiki to get the year of your birth, as
>the font of all misinformation - yet the information was correct! Oh
>dear SOF.


Obviously the distinction I made is far,. Far beyond the IQ range of the
BLF. RH
--
Robert Henderson
Blair Scandal website: http://www.geocities.com/blairscandal/
Personal website: http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk


02 May 2008 10:18:05
Robert Henderson
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

In message
<80f2b60a-e76d-420d-84c7-302c3657806b@l64g2000hse.googlegroups.com >,
Gavin Cawley <GavinCawley@googlemail.com > writes
>> >;o)
>>
>> Note: The subject GEDi responds as predicted to targeted stimulus. RH
>
>Except I published my prediction of your response before you made it.
>You on the other hand can only claim to have predicted mine after I had
>made it. I wonder which is more credible, LOL!
>

You assume that posts are received and/or read before other posts are
sent, young GEDi. RH
--
Robert Henderson
Blair Scandal website: http://www.geocities.com/blairscandal/
Personal website: http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk


02 May 2008 12:12:53
Toby
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

Robert Henderson wrote:
> In message <1pCdnbveipKuK4fVnZ2dnUVZ8vydnZ2d@giganews.com>, Toby
> <toby.briggs@gmail.com> writes
>>>>
>>>> Robert, you are seriously sad to say that Wiki is the font of all
>>>> misinformation, when they've got your birth year correct?!
>>> Sigh. That had nothing to do with my point, that point being
>>> Wikepedia's general unreliability, young BLF. RH
>>>
>>
>> No - you claimed that as I used Wiki to get the year of your birth, as
>> the font of all misinformation - yet the information was correct! Oh
>> dear SOF.
>
>
> Obviously the distinction I made is far,. Far beyond the IQ range of the
> BLF. RH

Surprise surprise, SOF is back to commenting on someone's intelligence
again.


02 May 2008 04:17:15
Richard Dixon
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

On 2 May, 05:53, Robert Henderson <phi...@anywhere.demon.co.uk > wrote:

> >We're doing well on Henderson Bingo today - we've had a "Status Quo" (5
> >points), a "Do Stop Projecting" (10 points), the "Hospital put-down"
> >(15 points) and, as above the somewhat rarer "Subject responds to..."
> >(25 points). Do try and be more original in future.
>
> >Richard
>
> Note: Subject R displays extreme stereotypical behaviour. RH
> --
> Robert Henderson
> Blair Scandal website:http://www.geocities.com/blairscandal/
> Personal website:http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk

25 points. RD


02 May 2008 16:26:01
max.it
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

On Fri, 2 May 2008 05:55:40 +0100, Robert Henderson
<philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk > wrote:

>In message <481a3db2.54646062@news.btinternet.com>, ?@?.?.invalid writes
>>
>>In the blood was far too detailed for Wisden.
>
>By what criteria? It produced the greatest response ever according to
>Frith. Dull or incomprehensible does not produce such a response. RH

You told them too much. A series of less detailed articles would have
given the readership more time to absorbe the address of the article.
The complete piece in one issue reads like the revelation of St John.

>
>>
>>Paul Stafford is much simpler to understand regarding Ed Joyce.
>>
>>" The ICC qualifying tournament in 2005 was part of the same World
>>Cricket Cup competition. No competition anywhere in the world allows a
>>player to play in a Cup game for one team and switch to another team in
>>the latter stages. So why are England allowed to take the pick of our
>>best players yet we can’t have them back when they don’t want them
>>anymore?"
>
>Because it makes a mockery of the idea of national represenation. RH

So did Joyce's selection for England. to begin with. He played in the
world cup for Ireland, and was permitted to play in the latter stages
of the same world cup for England.


max.it

>
>>
>>max.it
>
>--
>Robert Henderson
>Blair Scandal website: http://www.geocities.com/blairscandal/
>Personal website: http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk



02 May 2008 10:39:04
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

On May 2, 6:56 am, Robert Henderson <phi...@anywhere.demon.co.uk >
wrote:
> In message
> <43404d81-ab21-4663-936f-f1d7ed9c4...@27g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
> rodney.uly...@gmail.com writes
> >> In message
> >> <64133729-b51b-4b65-b4c1-d262d8b44...@34g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
> >> rodney.uly...@gmail.com writes
> >> >That's lovely, Robert, but how, exactly, does it make me look stupid?
> >> >You seem to have confused Frith's not supporting your views with
> >> >Frith's not publishing you.
> >> I suggest you keep reading what I have written until you understand it.
> >> RH
> >I suggest you stop wasting our time. Put up or shut up.
[...]
> Translation: Mr Confused refuses to read. RH

You know, Robert, I have shown you nothing but respect in the year or
so that I have been here. If you feel that a trivial disagreement is
grounds enough to stop reciprocating -- indeed, begin dolling out
childish insults --, then, really, you need help. I mean that in the
nicest way possible.

<snip >


02 May 2008 23:04:05
Richard Dixon
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

rodney.ulyate@gmail.com wrote in
news:cc9cbd6c-88e4-44d9-8605-a4f0f916b7cb@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:

> You know, Robert, I have shown you nothing but respect in the year or
> so that I have been here. If you feel that a trivial disagreement is
> grounds enough to stop reciprocating -- indeed, begin dolling out
> childish insults --, then, really, you need help. I mean that in the
> nicest way possible.

Good luck Rodney - you'll get:

a) Do stop projecting
b) Status quo
c) The hospital "Nurse!" put-down

Welcome to the world of us mere mortals not intelligent enough to follow
Robert's line of argument. You know - the world where people socialise and
have friends outside of a bedsit.

Richard



03 May 2008 00:24:58
max.it
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

On Fri, 02 May 2008 23:04:05 GMT, Richard Dixon
<rdngemail@yahoo.co.uk > wrote:

>rodney.ulyate@gmail.com wrote in
>news:cc9cbd6c-88e4-44d9-8605-a4f0f916b7cb@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:
>
>> You know, Robert, I have shown you nothing but respect in the year or
>> so that I have been here. If you feel that a trivial disagreement is
>> grounds enough to stop reciprocating -- indeed, begin dolling out
>> childish insults --, then, really, you need help. I mean that in the
>> nicest way possible.
>
>Good luck Rodney - you'll get:
>
>a) Do stop projecting
>b) Status quo
>c) The hospital "Nurse!" put-down
>
>Welcome to the world of us mere mortals not intelligent enough to follow
>Robert's line of argument. You know - the world where people socialise and
>have friends outside of a bedsit.
>
>Richard
>

Settle your self/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBChWF9pZ5M&feature=related

max.it


02 May 2008 17:25:00
Robert Henderson
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

In message <V-SdneoaXJyraofVnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@giganews.com >, Toby
<toby.briggs@gmail.com > writes
>>>
>>> No - you claimed that as I used Wiki to get the year of your birth,
>>>as the font of all misinformation - yet the information was correct!
>>>Oh dear SOF.
>> Obviously the distinction I made is far,. Far beyond the IQ range
>>of the BLF. RH
>
>Surprise surprise, SOF is back to commenting on someone's intelligence
>again.

Original judgement confirmed. RH
--
Robert Henderson
Blair Scandal website: http://www.geocities.com/blairscandal/
Personal website: http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk


03 May 2008 05:34:08
Robert Henderson
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

In message <481b1915.23585796@news.btinternet.com >, ?@?.?.invalid writes
>>
>>Because it makes a mockery of the idea of national represenation. RH
>
>So did Joyce's selection for England. to begin with. He played in the
>world cup for Ireland, and was permitted to play in the latter stages
>of the same world cup for England.
>
>

That does not alter my point. The rules were changed not the moral
context. RH
>max.it

--
Robert Henderson
Blair Scandal website: http://www.geocities.com/blairscandal/
Personal website: http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk


03 May 2008 17:03:09
max.it
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

On Sat, 3 May 2008 05:34:08 +0100, Robert Henderson
<philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk > wrote:

>In message <481b1915.23585796@news.btinternet.com>, ?@?.?.invalid writes
>>>
>>>Because it makes a mockery of the idea of national represenation. RH
>>
>>So did Joyce's selection for England. to begin with. He played in the
>>world cup for Ireland, and was permitted to play in the latter stages
>>of the same world cup for England.
>>
>>
>
>That does not alter my point. The rules were changed not the moral
>context. RH


Morality and obligation the lead necktie.

max.it

>>max.it
>
>--
>Robert Henderson
>Blair Scandal website: http://www.geocities.com/blairscandal/
>Personal website: http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk



03 May 2008 21:48:11
Robert Henderson
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

In message <481c9934.28874921@news.btinternet.com >, ?@?.?.invalid writes
>>
>>
>>
>>That does not alter my point. The rules were changed not the moral
>>context. RH
>
>
>Morality and obligation the lead necktie.
>
>max.it
>
If only there were any sort of tie at all these days, Max. RH

>>>max.it

--
Robert Henderson
Blair Scandal website: http://www.geocities.com/blairscandal/
Personal website: http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk


05 May 2008 01:42:43
rterhart@gmail.com
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

Robert,

In the article you claim that "there is firm statistical evidence to
support the view that coloured players in England caps do not perform
well."

While that may have been true at the time you wrote that (in the early
1990s, I presume) I wonder if it is still true today. If you look at
player who have made their debut in the last ten or fifteen years, can
you still claim that coloured players as a group have underperformed?

RtH


05 May 2008 10:09:42
Robert Henderson
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

In message
<b2315fe4-4823-4e43-a500-8294e88148a6@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com >,
"rterhart@gmail.com" <rterhart@gmail.com > writes
>Robert,
>
>In the article you claim that "there is firm statistical evidence to
>support the view that coloured players in England caps do not perform
>well."
>
>While that may have been true at the time you wrote that (in the early
>1990s, I presume) I wonder if it is still true today. If you look at
>player who have made their debut in the last ten or fifteen years, can
>you still claim that coloured players as a group have underperformed?
>
>RtH


It depends if you take ten or fifteen years. There have not been many
blacks and Asians coming into the England side in the past ten years.
Of those who have played any significant amount, their records, with the
exception of Dean Headley - have been dire (Ramprakash) to mediocre
(Hussain and Panesar).

Taking the fifteen year period blacks and Asian have almost all
performed poorly, only Headley acchieving a Test average of less than
30 for 50 or more wickets and no batsman has reached a Test average of
40.

The main problem in recent years has been the use of white mercenaries
such as Geraint Jones. RH
--
Robert Henderson
Blair Scandal website: http://www.geocities.com/blairscandal/
Personal website: http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk


05 May 2008 04:25:01
rterhart@gmail.com
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

On 5 mei, 11:09, Robert Henderson <phi...@anywhere.demon.co.uk > wrote:
> In message
> <b2315fe4-4823-4e43-a500-8294e8814...@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
> "rterh...@gmail.com" <rterh...@gmail.com> writes
>
> >Robert,
>
> >In the article you claim that "there is firm statistical evidence to
> >support the view that coloured players in England caps do not perform
> >well."
>
> >While that may have been true at the time you wrote that (in the early
> >1990s, I presume) I wonder if it is still true today. If you look at
> >player who have made their debut in the last ten or fifteen years, can
> >you still claim that coloured players as a group have underperformed?
>
> >RtH
>
> It depends if you take =A0ten or fifteen years. There have not been =A0man=
y
> blacks and Asians coming into the England side in the past ten years.
> Of those who have played any significant amount, their records, with the
> exception of Dean Headley - =A0have been dire (Ramprakash) to mediocre
> (Hussain and Panesar).
>
> Taking the fifteen year period blacks and Asian have almost all
> performed poorly, =A0only Headley acchieving a Test average of less than
> 30 for 50 or more wickets and no batsman =A0has reached a Test =A0average =
of
> 40.
>

It does not depend if we take ten or fifteen years: in both cases
Ramprakash (made his debut 17 years ago) and Hussein (18 years ago)
fall outside the time frame.

Monty Panesar has the best average of any English spinner in the past
25 years. I wouldn't call that mediocre.

Could you please provide statistical proof that coloured players who
have made their debut in the last 15 years and who have played any
significant amount have underperformed compared to white players?

RtH

> The main problem in recent years has been the use =A0of white mercenaries
> such as Geraint Jones. RH
> --
> Robert Henderson
> Blair Scandal website:http://www.geocities.com/blairscandal/
> Personal website:http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk



05 May 2008 14:21:55
Robert Henderson
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

In message
<a13902ad-48db-4c42-8979-8b18fdbe1a44@c58g2000hsc.googlegroups.com >,
"rterhart@gmail.com" <rterhart@gmail.com > writes
>
>
>It does not depend if we take ten or fifteen years: in both cases
>Ramprakash (made his debut 17 years ago) and Hussein (18 years ago)
>fall outside the time frame.
>
>Monty Panesar has the best average of any English spinner in the past
>25 years. I wouldn't call that mediocre.

Hasn't finished his career. Spinners commonly start well then decline as
batsmen work them out. Tufnell had a very good record early on. RH
>
>Could you please provide statistical proof that coloured players who
>have made their debut in the last 15 years and who have played any
>significant amount have underperformed compared to white players?

I already have done by citing the fact that only one managed a Test
average of less than 30 as a bowler (minimum of 50 wickets) and none
managed a Test average of 40 (minimum of 1,000 runs) - Hussain is
highest with .An average of 36 from memory. No one else e has managed to
average 30.

English players managed both on occasions in excess of their
representation in the side (compared with blacks and Asians):

Batting

Thorpe,
Strauss
Bell
Collingwood
Vaughan
Trescothick
Cook

In addition Stewart averaged 39 (and would have averaged 40 if he had
not kept wicket. Atheron 37, Crawley averaged 34. Gooch also played for
three years into the 15 year period taking that as beginning in 1992.

Bowlers:

Cork
Gough
Fraser
Sidebottom

In addition, Hoggard and Harmison have both taken their wickets at under
32, a lower average than any black or Asian bowler except for Headley.

England have also produced an outstanding allrounder in Flintoff.

RH



>
>RtH

--
Robert Henderson
Blair Scandal website: http://www.geocities.com/blairscandal/
Personal website: http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk


05 May 2008 10:48:17
rterhart@gmail.com
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

On 5 mei, 15:21, Robert Henderson <phi...@anywhere.demon.co.uk > wrote:
> In message
> <a13902ad-48db-4c42-8979-8b18fdbe1...@c58g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
> "rterh...@gmail.com" <rterh...@gmail.com> writes
>
>

For purposes of this discussion, the 15 year period starts in the
summer of 1993, with the debuts of Andrew Caddick and Peter Such. Only
they, and players making their debut after them can be included here.

>
> I already have done by citing the fact that only one managed a Test
> average of less than 30 as a bowler (minimum of 50 wickets)

You forget to mention that he is the *only* coloured player to take
more than Test 50 wickets, except for Panesar who, as I have said
before, has the best average etc.

and none
> managed a Test average of =A040 (minimum of 1,000 runs)

Only one coloured player has scored more than 1,000 runs: Mark
Butcher, whose average is comparable to Crawley's.

The only possible conclusion is the one you have already come to: that
not many coloured players have played for England at all in the last
15 years. And the few that have played a significant amount, haven't
done too badly.

<snip >

>
> In addition, Hoggard and Harmison have both taken their wickets at under
> 32,

Would that be the same Harmison you recently described as being a
liability at Test level?

RtH



05 May 2008 19:19:45
max.it
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

On Sat, 3 May 2008 21:48:11 +0100, Robert Henderson
<philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk > wrote:

>In message <481c9934.28874921@news.btinternet.com>, ?@?.?.invalid writes
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>That does not alter my point. The rules were changed not the moral
>>>context. RH
>>
>>
>>Morality and obligation the lead necktie.
>>
>>max.it
>>
>If only there were any sort of tie at all these days, Max. RH

I wouldn't be going for a clip on model anyway, or one of those
elastic things.

max.it

>
>>>>max.it
>
>--
>Robert Henderson
>Blair Scandal website: http://www.geocities.com/blairscandal/
>Personal website: http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk



06 May 2008 00:19:59
David North
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

"Robert Henderson" <philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk > wrote in message
news:qhba9NoznwHIFwFg@anywhere.demon.co.uk...
> In message
> <a13902ad-48db-4c42-8979-8b18fdbe1a44@c58g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
> "rterhart@gmail.com" <rterhart@gmail.com> writes
>>
>>
>>It does not depend if we take ten or fifteen years: in both cases
>>Ramprakash (made his debut 17 years ago) and Hussein (18 years ago) fall
>>outside the time frame.
>>
>>Monty Panesar has the best average of any English spinner in the past 25
>>years. I wouldn't call that mediocre.
>
> Hasn't finished his career. Spinners commonly start well then decline as
> batsmen work them out. Tufnell had a very good record early on. RH

Tufnell had a better average in the second half of his Test career than in
the first. His average was higher than Panesar's is by and from the time he
had played half as many Tests as Panesar has. By the time he had played as
many as Panesar, he averaged over 38.
--
David North




05 May 2008 19:35:00
Robert Henderson
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

In message
<b4c24b6e-06f4-4ecf-8697-09740b375e72@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com >,
"rterhart@gmail.com" <rterhart@gmail.com > writes
>
>For purposes of this discussion, the 15 year period starts in the
>summer of 1993, with the debuts of Andrew Caddick and Peter Such. Only
>they, and players making their debut after them can be included here.
>
No. If you want fifteen seasons you start in the summer of 1992 . this
season has not been played. RH

>>
>> I already have done by citing the fact that only one managed a Test
>> average of less than 30 as a bowler (minimum of 50 wickets)
>
>You forget to mention that he is the *only* coloured player to take
>more than Test 50 wickets, except for Panesar


Utterly wrong, viz:

Malcolm test average 37

Lewis Test average 37

Small Test average 34

DeFreitas Test average 33.

RH

>who, as I have said before, has the best average etc.


>
>and none
>> managed a Test average of  40 (minimum of 1,000 runs)
>
>Only one coloured player has scored more than 1,000 runs: Mark Butcher,

Wrong. Ramprakash has done so with the lowest Test average ever of any
England batsman playing 40 or more Tests - an average of 27. RH

>whose average is comparable to Crawley's.

But Crawley is not the main player in the group of English batsmen I
cited. RH

>
>The only possible conclusion is the one you have already come to: that
>not many coloured players have played for England at all in the last 15
>years. And the few that have played a significant amount, haven't done
>too badly.

No,, not many have played over the past ten years. Plenty played in the
five years before that. RH

>
><snip>
>
>>
>> In addition, Hoggard and Harmison have both taken their wickets at under
>> 32,
>
>Would that be the same Harmison you recently described as being a
>liability at Test level?
>

Your logic fails you. If I think someone with A Test average of 32 is
a liability, those with higher Test averages are an even greater
liability. RH

>RtH
>

--
Robert Henderson
Blair Scandal website: http://www.geocities.com/blairscandal/
Personal website: http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk


06 May 2008 05:17:03
Robert Henderson
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

In message <689j0tF2rifipU1@mid.individual.net >, David North
<dnorth@abbeymanor.fsbusiness.co.uk > writes
>>>years. I wouldn't call that mediocre.
>>
>> Hasn't finished his career. Spinners commonly start well then decline as
>> batsmen work them out. Tufnell had a very good record early on. RH
>
>Tufnell had a better average in the second half of his Test career than
>in the first. His average was higher than Panesar's is by and from the
>time he had played half as many Tests as Panesar has. By the time he
>had played as many as Panesar, he averaged over 38.
>--
>David North

But not when he had taken around 40 wickets. RH
--
Robert Henderson
Blair Scandal website: http://www.geocities.com/blairscandal/
Personal website: http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk


05 May 2008 23:46:19
Fred
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

On 5 May, 09:42, "rterh...@gmail.com" <rterh...@gmail.com > wrote:
> Robert,
>
> In the article you claim that "there is firm statistical evidence to
> support the view that coloured players in England caps do not perform
> well."
>
> While that may have been true at the time you wrote that (in the early
> 1990s, I presume) I wonder if it is still true today. If you look at
> player who have made their debut in the last ten or fifteen years, can
> you still claim that coloured players as a group have underperformed?
>
> RtH

FWIW last year (and the year before) I posted an analysis of the test
records of all the players RH approved of playing for England since
the publication of "Is it in the blood?" and all the players RH did
not approve of playing for England. The approved batsmen-allrounders-
wicketkeepers had a slightly better batting average than the not
approved ones, and the not approved bowlers-allrounders had a
fractionally better bowling average. It seems pretty clear to me that
the assertions that Robert published back in WCM have not been backed
up by subsequent results.

I'm not going to post it a third time - Robert didn't take it on board
last time, and I'm not going to hit my head against a brick wall
again, but the details are in the archive, as is the subsequent
discussion. I think the thread was something like "Bloody Johnny
Foreigner".

I also posted an analysis of RH approved / not approved players
turning out for England since 1980, and even there I couldn't find
statistical evidence to back up RH's theories (where you would expect
to if his article was based on the reality of player records). It
seems very much to me that RH nhas made the fatal error of coming to a
conclusion first and then looking back to find the evidence to back it
up (which he does by cherry picking stats, rather than taking
aggregates) and refusing to listen to any alternative voices.


06 May 2008 00:54:02
rterhart@gmail.com
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

On 5 mei, 20:35, Robert Henderson <phi...@anywhere.demon.co.uk > wrote:
> In message
> <b4c24b6e-06f4-4ecf-8697-09740b375...@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
> "rterh...@gmail.com" <rterh...@gmail.com> writes
>
> >For purposes of this discussion, the 15 year period starts in the
> >summer of 1993, with the debuts of Andrew Caddick and Peter Such. Only
> >they, and players making their debut after them can be included here.
>
> No. If you want fifteen seasons you start in the summer of 1992 . this
> season has not been played. RH
>

If you want to start in 1992, fine by me. I have said twice, and I
will say it here a third time, that I wanted this discussion to be
only about players making their debut after said date. That means you
cannot bring up Malcolm, Lewis, et. al. If you cannot stick to this
simple rule, Robert, please do not bother replying.

I made the rule for a specific reason. If you claim that in the 1980s
and early 90s coloured players statistically underperformed compared
to white players, there may be some evidence to back that up. However,
I wanted to know whether you think that underperformance continues to
this day and if so, if you could present some statistical proof to
back up that claim. That is why I limited the discussion to recent
players, defined as those who made their debut in the last 15 years.

In trying to prove your point, the only player you could come up with
was Dean Headley, a man with a bowling average of 28. Which pretty
much answers my question, I guess.

Thank you.

RtH




06 May 2008 09:00:24
Toby
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

David North wrote:
> "Robert Henderson" <philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:qhba9NoznwHIFwFg@anywhere.demon.co.uk...
>> In message
>> <a13902ad-48db-4c42-8979-8b18fdbe1a44@c58g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
>> "rterhart@gmail.com" <rterhart@gmail.com> writes
>>>
>>> It does not depend if we take ten or fifteen years: in both cases
>>> Ramprakash (made his debut 17 years ago) and Hussein (18 years ago) fall
>>> outside the time frame.
>>>
>>> Monty Panesar has the best average of any English spinner in the past 25
>>> years. I wouldn't call that mediocre.
>> Hasn't finished his career. Spinners commonly start well then decline as
>> batsmen work them out. Tufnell had a very good record early on. RH
>
> Tufnell had a better average in the second half of his Test career than in
> the first. His average was higher than Panesar's is by and from the time he
> had played half as many Tests as Panesar has. By the time he had played as
> many as Panesar, he averaged over 38.

Here are cumulative averages throughout both Tufnell's and Panesar's
careers...

Tufnell - http://tinyurl.com/6ftakx
Panesar - http://tinyurl.com/65v26u



06 May 2008 01:09:57
Gavin Cawley
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

On May 6, 7:46 am, Fred <longhop2...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> On 5 May, 09:42, "rterh...@gmail.com" <rterh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Robert,
>
> > In the article you claim that "there is firm statistical evidence to
> > support the view that coloured players in England caps do not perform
> > well."
>
> > While that may have been true at the time you wrote that (in the early
> > 1990s, I presume) I wonder if it is still true today. If you look at
> > player who have made their debut in the last ten or fifteen years, can
> > you still claim that coloured players as a group have underperformed?
>
> > RtH
>
> FWIW last year (and the year before) I posted an analysis of the test
> records of all the players RH approved of playing for England since
> the publication of "Is it in the blood?" and all the players RH did
> not approve of playing for England. The approved batsmen-allrounders-
> wicketkeepers had a slightly better batting average than the not
> approved ones, and the not approved bowlers-allrounders had a
> fractionally better bowling average. It seems pretty clear to me that
> the assertions that Robert published back in WCM have not been backed
> up by subsequent results.
>
> I'm not going to post it a third time - Robert didn't take it on board
> last time, and I'm not going to hit my head against a brick wall
> again, but the details are in the archive, as is the subsequent
> discussion. I think the thread was something like "Bloody Johnny
> Foreigner".
>
> I also posted an analysis of RH approved / not approved players
> turning out for England since 1980, and even there I couldn't find
> statistical evidence to back up RH's theories (where you would expect
> to if his article was based on the reality of player records). It
> seems very much to me that RH nhas made the fatal error of coming to a
> conclusion first and then looking back to find the evidence to back it
> up (which he does by cherry picking stats, rather than taking
> aggregates) and refusing to listen to any alternative voices.

ISTR perfoming (permutation) tests for statistical significance for
the difference in averages between groups for one year and IIRC found
that very little was statistically significant (basically the test
shows that random partitions of the players into groups gave
differences in averages of similar sizes to those for Roberts
groupings, strongly suggesting that the differences are meaningless).


06 May 2008 09:54:17
Richard Dixon
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

Fred <longhop2005@hotmail.com > wrote in news:a7d807c5-87cf-4e81-8957-
21b427b9e31e@56g2000hsm.googlegroups.com:

> and refusing to listen to any alternative voices.

The crux of the problem in any attempted conversation with Robert.

Richard


06 May 2008 11:19:38
Andy Walker
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

In article <HSChhTwUN1HIFwTr@anywhere.demon.co.uk >,
Robert Henderson <philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk > wrote:
>No. If you want fifteen seasons you start in the summer of 1992 . this
>season has not been played. RH

I wonder what RH's excuse will be for this one?

--
Andy Walker
Nottingham


06 May 2008 12:33:40
Toby
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

Andy Walker wrote:
> In article <HSChhTwUN1HIFwTr@anywhere.demon.co.uk>,
> Robert Henderson <philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> No. If you want fifteen seasons you start in the summer of 1992 . this
>> season has not been played. RH
>
> I wonder what RH's excuse will be for this one?
>

I was wondering that too ;-)


06 May 2008 12:36:35
HVS
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

On 06 May 2008, Toby wrote

> Andy Walker wrote:
>> In article <HSChhTwUN1HIFwTr@anywhere.demon.co.uk>,
>> Robert Henderson <philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> No. If you want fifteen seasons you start in the summer of
>>> 1992 . this season has not been played. RH
>>
>> I wonder what RH's excuse will be for this one?
>>
>
> I was wondering that too ;-)

Hey, be fair -- maybe he's disabled, and doesn't have enough fingers
and toes to count how many seasons are in there.


06 May 2008 06:40:23
Richard Dixon
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

On 6 May, 12:19, a...@cuboid.uk (Andy Walker) wrote:
> In article <HSChhTwUN1HIF...@anywhere.demon.co.uk>,
> Robert Henderson =A0<phi...@anywhere.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >No. If you want fifteen seasons you start in the summer of 1992 . this
> >season has not been played. RH
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 I wonder what RH's excuse will be for this one?

The usual when scuppered:

### tumbleweed ###

Richard


06 May 2008 15:13:53
Robert Henderson
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

In message <fvpesa$qm7$1$8302bc10@news.demon.co.uk >, Andy Walker
<anw@cuboid.uk > writes
>In article <HSChhTwUN1HIFwTr@anywhere.demon.co.uk>,
>Robert Henderson <philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>No. If you want fifteen seasons you start in the summer of 1992 . this
>>season has not been played. RH
>
> I wonder what RH's excuse will be for this one?
>
Sigh No black or Asian made their Test debut for England in 2007. RH
--
Robert Henderson
Blair Scandal website: http://www.geocities.com/blairscandal/
Personal website: http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk


06 May 2008 15:19:51
Robert Henderson
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

In message
<766638ed-cc45-42f5-bac3-1b8b86fd8887@t54g2000hsg.googlegroups.com >,
"rterhart@gmail.com" <rterhart@gmail.com > writes
>On 5 mei, 20:35, Robert Henderson <phi...@anywhere.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message
>> <b4c24b6e-06f4-4ecf-8697-09740b375...@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
>> "rterh...@gmail.com" <rterh...@gmail.com> writes
>>
>> >For purposes of this discussion, the 15 year period starts in the
>> >summer of 1993, with the debuts of Andrew Caddick and Peter Such. Only
>> >they, and players making their debut after them can be included here.
>>
>> No. If you want fifteen seasons you start in the summer of 1992 . this
>> season has not been played. RH
>>
>
>If you want to start in 1992, fine by me. I have said twice, and I
>will say it here a third time, that I wanted this discussion to be
>only about players making their debut after said date


That is what you want. Don't expect others to accept what you want. It
is pointless doing it on debut because there have been few blacks and
Asians debuting after 1992 or 3 who had any substantial Test career. .
What matters is the performance of those who played, not performance
during some artificial period. RH

>. That means you
>cannot bring up Malcolm, Lewis, et. al. If you cannot stick to this
>simple rule, Robert, please do not bother replying.

You stick to your rules and I'll stick to mine. RH

>
>I made the rule for a specific reason. If you claim that in the 1980s
>and early 90s coloured players statistically underperformed compared
>to white players, there may be some evidence to back that up. However,
>I wanted to know whether you think that underperformance continues to
>this day


It does as my stats showed,. The problem is that fewer and fewer blacks
and Asians debuting in the past 15 years have had substantial Test
careers. The data isn't there. However, those who have played in your
artificial period have done poorly apart from Headley. RH

> and if so, if you could present some statistical proof to
>back up that claim. That is why I limited the discussion to recent
>players, defined as those who made their debut in the last 15 years.
>
>In trying to prove your point, the only player you could come up with
>was Dean Headley, a man with a bowling average of 28. Which pretty
>much answers my question, I guess.

Yes, it shows how poor the general black and Asian performance has been.
RH
>
>Thank you.
>
>RtH
>
>

--
Robert Henderson
Blair Scandal website: http://www.geocities.com/blairscandal/
Personal website: http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk


06 May 2008 17:28:19
Toby
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

Robert Henderson wrote:
> In message <fvpesa$qm7$1$8302bc10@news.demon.co.uk>, Andy Walker
> <anw@cuboid.uk> writes
>> In article <HSChhTwUN1HIFwTr@anywhere.demon.co.uk>,
>> Robert Henderson <philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> No. If you want fifteen seasons you start in the summer of 1992 . this
>>> season has not been played. RH
>>
>> I wonder what RH's excuse will be for this one?
>>
> Sigh No black or Asian made their Test debut for England in 2007. RH

Ah - so your criteria as above doesn't include Ravi Bopara - debut Dec 2007.


06 May 2008 21:29:56
Richard Dixon
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

Toby <toby.briggs@gmail.com > wrote in
news:d86dnXZwlZy8Gr3VnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@giganews.com:

>> Sigh No black or Asian made their Test debut for England in 2007.
>> RH
>
> Ah - so your criteria as above doesn't include Ravi Bopara - debut Dec
> 2007.

This should be interesting...

Richard


06 May 2008 14:59:04
Fred
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

On 6 May, 15:19, Robert Henderson <phi...@anywhere.demon.co.uk > wrote:

> The problem is that fewer and fewer blacks
> and Asians debuting in the past 15 years =A0have had substantial Test
> careers.

lol - I never thought I'd read these words from RH...


06 May 2008 15:01:55
Fred
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

On 6 May, 09:09, Gavin Cawley <GavinCaw...@googlemail.com > wrote:

> ISTR perfoming (permutation) tests for statistical significance for
> the difference in averages between groups for one year and IIRC found
> that very little was statistically significant (basically the test
> shows that random partitions of the players into groups gave
> differences in averages of similar sizes to those for Roberts
> groupings, strongly suggesting that the differences are meaningless).

You did indeed - much appreciated, you supplied the maths & stats know-
how that I lack!


06 May 2008 19:22:39
Robert Henderson
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

In message <d86dnXZwlZy8Gr3VnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@giganews.com >, Toby
<toby.briggs@gmail.com > writes
>>>
>>> I wonder what RH's excuse will be for this one?
>>>
>> Sigh No black or Asian made their Test debut for England in 2007. RH
>
>Ah - so your criteria as above doesn't include Ravi Bopara - debut Dec 2007.


Not in the summer. Sigh. RH
--
Robert Henderson
Blair Scandal website: http://www.geocities.com/blairscandal/
Personal website: http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk


06 May 2008 23:55:05
Gavin Cawley
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

On May 6, 11:01 pm, Fred <longhop2...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> On 6 May, 09:09, Gavin Cawley <GavinCaw...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> > ISTR perfoming (permutation) tests for statistical significance for
> > the difference in averages between groups for one year and IIRC found
> > that very little was statistically significant (basically the test
> > shows that random partitions of the players into groups gave
> > differences in averages of similar sizes to those for Roberts
> > groupings, strongly suggesting that the differences are meaningless).
>
> You did indeed - much appreciated, you supplied the maths & stats know-
> how that I lack!

Always be suspicious of statistics without a clear statement of
statistical significance (at what level of confidence and how the test
was performed). Most often when someone has "statistical evidence" to
support an assertion that they are already committed to, it is all too
easy for them to latch onto very weak evidence and get carried away
with it. Its very easy to get stats wrong, even when you do have the
training!


07 May 2008 08:43:01
Toby
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

Robert Henderson wrote:
> In message <d86dnXZwlZy8Gr3VnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@giganews.com>, Toby
> <toby.briggs@gmail.com> writes
>>>>
>>>> I wonder what RH's excuse will be for this one?
>>>>
>>> Sigh No black or Asian made their Test debut for England in 2007. RH
>>
>> Ah - so your criteria as above doesn't include Ravi Bopara - debut Dec
>> 2007.
>
>
> Not in the summer. Sigh. RH

Robert changes his goalposts.


07 May 2008 08:55:30
HVS
Re: Is it in the blood? - the reply Frith refused to publish

On 07 May 2008, Toby wrote

> Robert Henderson wrote:
>> In message <d86dnXZwlZy8Gr3VnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@giganews.com>,
>> Toby <toby.briggs@gmail.com> writes
>>>>>
>>>>> I wonder what RH's excuse will be for this one?
>>>>>
>>>> Sigh No black or Asian made their Test debut for England in
>>>> 2007. RH
>>>
>>> Ah - so your criteria as above doesn't include Ravi Bopara -
>>> debut Dec 2007.
>>
>>
>> Not in the summer. Sigh. RH
>
> Robert changes his goalposts.
>

And wasn't it summer where he made his debut?