26 Feb 2007 17:25:55
Danzig
lasix cover up

it is there MOSTLY to cover up the bleeding that Bute causes....

There never were the numbers of bleeders until this NSAID came into wide
use.......

Tim Yatcak


26 Feb 2007 13:17:23
foaddoc
Re: lasix cover up


"Danzig" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> it is there MOSTLY to cover up the bleeding that Bute causes....
>
> There never were the numbers of bleeders until this NSAID came into wide
> use.......

Once again wide of the mark.

"Along with some other diuretics, furosemide is also included on the World
Anti-Doping Agency's banned drug list due to its alleged use as a masking
agent for other drugs."

"If it's not regulated properly, Lasix can mask the presence of illegal,
performance-enhancing drugs in racehorses. Such drugs are administered in
small doses and detected in a horse's urine, and because a horse on Lasix
produces 10 to 100 times more urine than a non-Lasix horse, illegal
substances become harder to spot."

"Ostensibly, Lasix is used to stop a horse from bleeding in its lungs, a
common problem. But Lasix does not stop bleeding and, in some horses,
doesn't reduce it. Lasix can, however, improve performance drastically from
weight loss alone, flush other drugs out of a horse's system and mask others
that remain by diluting them. Even more troublesome is that Lasix use may
hide a horse's physical problems while doing nothing to heal them."

Here, read a book, learn a fact.

http://www.amazon.com/Run-Baby-Breeder-Handicapper-Racehorses/dp/0929346718






26 Feb 2007 18:22:03
Danzig
Re: lasix cover up from a vet

foaddoc wrote:
> "Danzig" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>> it is there MOSTLY to cover up the bleeding that Bute causes....
>>
>> There never were the numbers of bleeders until this NSAID came into wide
>> use.......
>
> Once again wide of the mark.
>
> "Along with some other diuretics, furosemide is also included on the World
> Anti-Doping Agency's banned drug list due to its alleged use as a masking
> agent for other drugs."
>
> "If it's not regulated properly, Lasix can mask the presence of illegal,
> performance-enhancing drugs in racehorses. Such drugs are administered in
> small doses and detected in a horse's urine, and because a horse on Lasix
> produces 10 to 100 times more urine than a non-Lasix horse, illegal
> substances become harder to spot."
>
> "Ostensibly, Lasix is used to stop a horse from bleeding in its lungs, a
> common problem. But Lasix does not stop bleeding and, in some horses,
> doesn't reduce it. Lasix can, however, improve performance drastically from
> weight loss alone, flush other drugs out of a horse's system and mask others
> that remain by diluting them. Even more troublesome is that Lasix use may
> hide a horse's physical problems while doing nothing to heal them."


"Countless scientific studies have shown that furosemide (Lasix)
effectively reduces pulmonary hemorrhage

in horses with EIPH ("bleeders"). When phenylbutazone is given along
with the furosemide,

the pulmonary artery pressures rise back up to the values seen prior to
giving the furosemide;

it's as if you never gave the Lasix if you give Bute with it. This may
be why your horse has

started bleeding again. Is your horse still being given Bute for his
ankles? Does he need it? Have you

determined what the problem was with his ankles? Talk to your trainer
and investigate these things prior

to retiring your colt.

Sue Hengemuehle, DVM


26 Feb 2007 18:45:40
Danzig
Re: lasix cover as they are just about ALL on bute

foaddoc wrote:
> "Danzig" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>> it is there MOSTLY to cover up the bleeding that Bute causes....
>>
>> There never were the numbers of bleeders until this NSAID came into wide
>> use.......
>
> Once again wide of the mark.
>
> "Along with some other diuretics, furosemide is also included on the World
> Anti-Doping Agency's banned drug list due to its alleged use as a masking
> agent for other drugs."
>
> "If it's not regulated properly, Lasix can mask the presence of illegal,
> performance-enhancing drugs in racehorses. Such drugs are administered in
> small doses and detected in a horse's urine, and because a horse on Lasix
> produces 10 to 100 times more urine than a non-Lasix horse, illegal
> substances become harder to spot."
>
> "Ostensibly, Lasix is used to stop a horse from bleeding in its lungs, a
> common problem. But Lasix does not stop bleeding and, in some horses,
> doesn't reduce it. Lasix can, however, improve performance drastically from
> weight loss alone, flush other drugs out of a horse's system and mask others
> that remain by diluting them. Even more troublesome is that Lasix use may
> hide a horse's physical problems while doing nothing to heal them."
>
> Here, read a book, learn a fact.
>
> http://www.amazon.com/Run-Baby-Breeder-Handicapper-Racehorses/dp/0929346718
>
>
>
>
federal law requires manufacturers list all known side effects. well
Interactions between drugs may occur. Horse owners should be aware of
some of the more common interactions. Phenylbutazone and its active
metabolite (break down products), oxyphenbutazone, are highly bound to
plasma proteins and may;

* displace other highly bound drugs and affect the serum levels and
duration of action of oral anticoagulants, other anti-inflammatory
agents and sulfonamides, e.g., T.M.S..
* increase the metabolism of drugs (by stimulating the hepatic
microsomal enzymes), e.g., digitoxin and phenytoin.
* increase the plasma half-life (slows the breakdown) of penicillin G.
* On the other hand, other drugs that affect the liver (microsomal
enzyme inducers), such as barbiturates, rifampin, or corticosteroids,
may decrease the plasma half-life of phenylbutazone (period the
medication is in the body) by causing increased metabolism of
phenylbutazone.
* Phenylbutazone may antagonize the increased renal blood flow
effects caused by furosemide.
* Although the use of phenylbutazone, along with other NSAIDs, may
increase the potential for adverse reactions developing, many clinicians
routinely use phenylbutazone concurrently with flunixin in horses.
* Phenylbutazone and oxyphenbutazone may interfere with
thyroid-function tests by competing with thyroxine at protein-binding
sites or by inhibiting thyroid-iodine uptake.


right there antagonizes increased renal blood flow


26 Feb 2007 13:47:22
foaddoc
Re: lasix cover up from a vet


"Danzig" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> foaddoc wrote:
>> "Danzig" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]
>>> it is there MOSTLY to cover up the bleeding that Bute causes....
>>>
>>> There never were the numbers of bleeders until this NSAID came into wide
>>> use.......
>>
>> Once again wide of the mark.
>>
>> "Along with some other diuretics, furosemide is also included on the
>> World Anti-Doping Agency's banned drug list due to its alleged use as a
>> masking agent for other drugs."
>>
>> "If it's not regulated properly, Lasix can mask the presence of illegal,
>> performance-enhancing drugs in racehorses. Such drugs are administered in
>> small doses and detected in a horse's urine, and because a horse on Lasix
>> produces 10 to 100 times more urine than a non-Lasix horse, illegal
>> substances become harder to spot."
>>
>> "Ostensibly, Lasix is used to stop a horse from bleeding in its lungs, a
>> common problem. But Lasix does not stop bleeding and, in some horses,
>> doesn't reduce it. Lasix can, however, improve performance drastically
>> from weight loss alone, flush other drugs out of a horse's system and
>> mask others that remain by diluting them. Even more troublesome is that
>> Lasix use may hide a horse's physical problems while doing nothing to
>> heal them."
>
>
> "Countless scientific studies have shown that furosemide (Lasix)
> effectively reduces pulmonary hemorrhage
>
> in horses with EIPH ("bleeders"). When phenylbutazone is given along with
> the furosemide,
>
> the pulmonary artery pressures rise back up to the values seen prior to
> giving the furosemide;
>
> it's as if you never gave the Lasix if you give Bute with it. This may be
> why your horse has
>
> started bleeding again. Is your horse still being given Bute for his
> ankles? Does he need it? Have you
>
> determined what the problem was with his ankles? Talk to your trainer and
> investigate these things prior
>
> to retiring your colt.
>
> Sue Hengemuehle, DVM

Golly. Is that THE Sue Hengmuehle? The point is that bute and lasix have
nothing to do with each other. All horses bleed to one extent or another. In
NY, bute's illegal and everybody uses lasix anyway. Why? To cover up any
irregularities in the testing. Again, read a book.





26 Feb 2007 19:09:23
Danzig
Re: lasix cover up from a vet

DVM
>
> Golly. Is that THE Sue Hengmuehle? The point is that bute and lasix have
> nothing to do with each other. All horses bleed to one extent or another. In
> NY, bute's illegal and everybody uses lasix anyway. Why? To cover up any
> irregularities in the testing. Again, read a book.
>
>
>

spoken like a true rookie in the field of pharmaceutical interactions.
NO DRUG has a single effect that is exclusive to itself


26 Feb 2007 14:22:17
foaddoc
Re: lasix cover up from a vet


"Danzig" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> DVM
>>
>> Golly. Is that THE Sue Hengmuehle? The point is that bute and lasix have
>> nothing to do with each other. All horses bleed to one extent or another.
>> In NY, bute's illegal and everybody uses lasix anyway. Why? To cover up
>> any irregularities in the testing. Again, read a book.
>>
>>
>>
>
> spoken like a true rookie in the field of pharmaceutical interactions. NO
> DRUG has a single effect that is exclusive to itself

First of all, you're an illiterate muttonhead who needs to learn to read for
comprehension. Second off all - and you'll have to take my word for this - I
have a lifetime of experience in the field of pharmaceutical interaction. So
fuck off now, although I do need to congratulate you, you went nearly two
whole posts without RANDOMLY capitalizing any words.




26 Feb 2007 19:35:51
Danzig
Re: lasix cover up from a vet

foaddoc wrote:
> "Danzig" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>> DVM
>>> Golly. Is that THE Sue Hengmuehle? The point is that bute and lasix have
>>> nothing to do with each other. All horses bleed to one extent or another.
>>> In NY, bute's illegal and everybody uses lasix anyway. Why? To cover up
>>> any irregularities in the testing. Again, read a book.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> spoken like a true rookie in the field of pharmaceutical interactions. NO
>> DRUG has a single effect that is exclusive to itself
>
> First of all, you're an illiterate muttonhead who needs to learn to read for
> comprehension. Second off all - and you'll have to take my word for this - I
> have a lifetime of experience in the field of pharmaceutical interaction. So
> fuck off now, although I do need to congratulate you, you went nearly two
> whole posts without RANDOMLY capitalizing any words.
>
>
well then you have not shown any comprehension in pharmacodynamics or
interactions.


26 Feb 2007 20:45:32
Danzig
well it's only in black and white

foaddoc wrote:
> "Danzig" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>> DVM
>>> Golly. Is that THE Sue Hengmuehle? The point is that bute and lasix have
>>> nothing to do with each other. All horses bleed to one extent or another.
>>> In NY, bute's illegal and everybody uses lasix anyway. Why? To cover up
>>> any irregularities in the testing. Again, read a book.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> spoken like a true rookie in the field of pharmaceutical interactions. NO
>> DRUG has a single effect that is exclusive to itself
>
> First of all, you're an illiterate muttonhead who needs to learn to read for
> comprehension. Second off all - and you'll have to take my word for this - I
> have a lifetime of experience in the field of pharmaceutical interaction. So
> fuck off now, although I do need to congratulate you, you went nearly two
> whole posts without RANDOMLY capitalizing any words.
>
>
http://www.usp.org/pdf/EN/veterinary/phenylbutazone.pdf

p.4 interactions of bute and furosemide


26 Feb 2007 16:56:51
foaddoc
Re: well it's only in black and white


"Danzig" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> foaddoc wrote:
>> "Danzig" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]
>>> DVM
>>>> Golly. Is that THE Sue Hengmuehle? The point is that bute and lasix
>>>> have nothing to do with each other. All horses bleed to one extent or
>>>> another. In NY, bute's illegal and everybody uses lasix anyway. Why? To
>>>> cover up any irregularities in the testing. Again, read a book.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> spoken like a true rookie in the field of pharmaceutical interactions.
>>> NO DRUG has a single effect that is exclusive to itself
>>
>> First of all, you're an illiterate muttonhead who needs to learn to read
>> for comprehension. Second off all - and you'll have to take my word for
>> this - I have a lifetime of experience in the field of pharmaceutical
>> interaction. So fuck off now, although I do need to congratulate you, you
>> went nearly two whole posts without RANDOMLY capitalizing any words.
> http://www.usp.org/pdf/EN/veterinary/phenylbutazone.pdf
>
> p.4 interactions of bute and furosemide

Oh god you're missing the point. There is no single reason that trainers
give horses lasix. That bute causes them to bleed, a factoid I am not
disputing, is not high on the totem pole of reasons. For example, in NY,
where horses routinely run on lasix, there is no bute used. OTOH, one of the
main reasons that trainers use lasix is its masking properties.




01 Mar 2007 23:10:01
Danzig
Re: lasix cover up yet again substantiated

Danzig wrote:
> it is there MOSTLY to cover up the bleeding that Bute causes....
>
> There never were the numbers of bleeders until this NSAID came into wide
> use.......
>
> Tim Yatcak
Vet Intern Med. 1991 Jul-Aug;5(4):211-8.

The renal and systemic hemodynamic effects of
are modified by prior administration of nonsteroidal
anti-inflammatory drugs. Furosemide administration
attenuates exercise-induced increases in right atrial, aortic,
and pulmonary artery pressures in ponies. Furosemide
prevents exercise and allergen-induced bronchoconstriction
in humans and decreases total pulmonary resistance in
ponies with recurrent obstructive airway disease. These
pharmacologic effects are frequently used to rationalize
its questionable efficacy in the prevention of exercise-induced
pulmonary hemorrhage. Neither the effect of furosemide on athletic
performance nor its efficacy in the prevention of exercise-induced
pulmonary hemorrhage has been convincingly demonstrated.


01 Mar 2007 23:11:11
Danzig
Re: lasix cover up yet another one

Danzig wrote:
> it is there MOSTLY to cover up the bleeding that Bute causes....
>
> There never were the numbers of bleeders until this NSAID came into wide
> use.......
>
> Tim Yatcak

Other reasons for decreased oxygenation that furosemide will not help.
http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/ho...out-oxygen.aspx
There are conditioning programs designed to train the equine body to use
oxygen more efficiently, feed supplements which intimate they can keep
horses working aerobically a few critical seconds longer during a race,
and medications like Lasix that try to keep horses lungs clear so they
can absorb more oxygen from the air they breath.
Such efforts will all be for naught if the horse is physically unable to
inhale the maximum amount of air because of an RLN-related obstruction.
Retired Tufts University veterinarian Dr. W. Robert Cook, who has
studied the problem extensively and written about it in his book,
Specifications for Speed in the Racehorse: The Airflow Factors, believes
as much as 95% of the Thoroughbred population suffers from some degree
of RLN. He estimates that RLN can cut a horses oxygen supply by as much
as 50%.